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Politics

How is Sovereignity working out for you?

189 replies

Zeropointzero · 07/10/2021 16:48

Are there any other people who think we have been fed the biggest lie in regards to sovereignity of Britain.I think the current gas chrisis shows,how dependant Britain is on China and Russia and Europe.

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jaundicedoutlook · 08/10/2021 08:38

Sovereignty is an academic concept for politicians.

People didn’t vote for Brexit to give Jacob Rees Mogg something to gloat about. They voted for it to get rid of those nasty foreigners.

3luckystars · 08/10/2021 08:50

I don’t think so. I know one very intelligent person who voted to leave. She felt the system ‘wasn’t working’ and voted to leave. She regrets it now but there is no point looking back before Brexit with rose tinted glasses. I think the UK did need a change, but not this. You were sold a pup. No point getting mad at the people who were lied to. Get mad at the liars.

JassyRadlett · 08/10/2021 10:01

Does anyone know if you can use sovereignty as a substitute for pasta in kids' meals?

jgw1 · 08/10/2021 11:16

@JassyRadlett

Does anyone know if you can use sovereignty as a substitute for pasta in kids' meals?
You can, it also helps heat your home.
DuncinToffee · 08/10/2021 11:40

And is delivered by unicorns?

Fifteentoes · 08/10/2021 17:21

@3luckystars

I don’t think so. I know one very intelligent person who voted to leave. She felt the system ‘wasn’t working’ and voted to leave. She regrets it now but there is no point looking back before Brexit with rose tinted glasses. I think the UK did need a change, but not this. You were sold a pup. No point getting mad at the people who were lied to. Get mad at the liars.
The problem with this is that the people who were lied to will continue to be lied to, and many of them continue to believe those lies, with disastrous consequences not just for themselves but for me, my family and everyone else. Just look at their touching faith in our glorious prime minister who, after achieving some of the WORST results in the WORLD in response to the pandemic, on top of a decade of Tory austerity that has decimated living standards and exacerbated inequality to no particular advantage for anyone but the rich, looks like romping home in another election victory next time.

Brexit was not some isolated anomaly. It was just a particularly visible symptom of the poor political education, ingrained deference to the ruling class, xenophobia, small mindedness, kneejerk conservatism and selective gullability of the English electorate (which is not to say that every Leave voter was motivated by all those factors; but just that the combination of all of them delivered a majority across the electorate).

Leaving aside the many things this government have got disastrously wrong, no elector with any sense, access to information and ANY respect for genuine, fair, open democracy could possibly vote for them just on the basis of the inexorable slide into fascism that we're experiencing (voter ID bill; police crime and sentencing bill etc.). But they will, and it will continue to get worse.

Of course when the left point these things out, or when Remain activists pointed them out to Leavers, they're being "condescending". It's all the fault of the horrible Metropolitan Liberal Elite for showing their contempt of the patriotic working class you see - to which the natural response is two fingers up and a heroic "F.U."

Yet now that those decisions made on the basis of misguided, ill-informed patriotism DO turn out to be idiotic, it's suddenly terribly important that we don't SAY so, that we're all nice to each and understand that everybody was just doing their best.

F* that. Yes, I have to live with the consequences of other people imposing this crap on me. What I don't have to do is make them feel better about themselves be calling it anything other than what it is.

DGRossetti · 08/10/2021 17:25

In the Brexit debate remainers failed to communicate the economic realities of leaving the EU.

What a crock of fucking shit.

rrhuth · 08/10/2021 20:22

@DGRossetti

In the Brexit debate remainers failed to communicate the economic realities of leaving the EU.

What a crock of fucking shit.

I don't understand why people get so angry about this remark I made, clearly the remain campaign failed to communicate well. They lost.

It wasn't helped by being fronted by bullshitter Cameron, and Mr Austerity himself, Osborne. Labour didn't get behind it, and the blatant lies from the leave side obliterated the facts.

But the remain campaign was definitely not a masterclass in political communication.

MarshaBradyo · 08/10/2021 20:26

I don’t think Remain did badly on communicating economic reality

But Brexit side did better at getting closer to how people felt emotionally

Then ‘Project Fear’ idea struck a cord with many

If the same tactics had flipped maybe same outcome maybe not

rrhuth · 08/10/2021 20:32

The polling showed remain failed to cut through - most people didn't recall their core messages and the economic details were poorly communicated.

MarshaBradyo · 08/10/2021 20:35

No they didn’t get cut through.

Too factual probably, dull, not emotive.

I very much enjoyed the programme with Cumberbatch playing DC (must have made his year to have that) and the tactics were very successful.

rrhuth · 08/10/2021 20:38

Too factual probably, dull, not emotive yes exactly - this is poor communication. They needed some fear ads of queues at petrol pumps and heaps of pig carcasses being burnt on farms Sad

Fifteentoes · 08/10/2021 23:59

And yet even the campaign as was, which you're saying didn't inspire enough fear, was derided as (literally) "project fear" - and considered not worth worrying about because it was obviously just scare tactics.

blacksax · 09/10/2021 00:06

I think I'd take your question more seriously if you could actually spell sovereignty properly.

Having said that, it is preferable to being an insignificant region of a monolithic federal state.

ZenNudist · 09/10/2021 00:09

It's a shit show. It was always going to be a shit show. No surprises here.

It's also no surprise that Brexit voting arseholes are refusing to own it. Even if the fuel crisis / HGV lorry crisis and energy crisis would all point to being partially cause by brexit.

Cascascascas · 09/10/2021 01:25

@Zeropointzero

An utter mess and lies and BS.

TooBigForMyBoots · 09/10/2021 01:54

One of the biggest lies sold was that our immigrant labour was unskilled work that could be done by the multitude of work shy Brits playing the system.Hmm

Brexit robbed an aging UK of young, skilled workers.

TheLeadbetterLife · 09/10/2021 02:21

@blacksax

I think I'd take your question more seriously if you could actually spell sovereignty properly.

Having said that, it is preferable to being an insignificant region of a monolithic federal state.

The U.K. was one of the most influential members of a global superpower.

Now it’s well on the way to insignificance, and the EU is well rid of it.

Zeropointzero · 09/10/2021 06:14

@Fifteentoes.spot on.If I say those arguments,people would tell me to go home to my country(i lived here for 37 years!).

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Zeropointzero · 09/10/2021 06:19

@blacksax.you are one of the people,who order fish and chips when in a restaurant in spain and complain that the spanish dont speak english.little englander.

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rrhuth · 09/10/2021 06:23

@blacksax

I think I'd take your question more seriously if you could actually spell sovereignty properly.

Having said that, it is preferable to being an insignificant region of a monolithic federal state.

It amazes me people believe this guff. The UK is far weaker and less relevant now. We had huge influence in Europe.

Are you imagining a revival of the days of empire?

rrhuth · 09/10/2021 06:29

@Fifteentoes

And yet even the campaign as was, which you're saying didn't inspire enough fear, was derided as (literally) "project fear" - and considered not worth worrying about because it was obviously just scare tactics.
My comment about 'fear ads' was tongue in cheek. But overall it wasn't a good campaign. It didn't positively sell the status quo and it didn't effectively persuade people of the negatives of leaving. It was fronted by the wrong people and it generated no excitement.

In 20 years when there is a campaign to go back in, I hope the campaign is stronger!

TheReluctantPhoenix · 09/10/2021 06:53

@rrhuth et al,

It is a ridiculous argument that bargaining power does not make workers richer, as it causes inflation, particularly put by one who claims to be economically knowledgeable.

Firstly, increased wages only leads to inflation if it can be passed on to consumers. If not, it just cuts profit margins.

Secondly, it will only lead to zero net gain if the increased wages are uniformly spread over the entire economy, something that is clearly not the case.

Thirdly, if certain jobs get a deserved one off uplift in pay, it causes a one off inflationary shock, which rapidly passes through the system.

I suspect that you do not use this argument when you discuss your salary with your boss!

Somehow, if it is lorry drivers getting an extra £5k per annum, this is inflationary, but when it is investment bankers, consultants, FTSE board members (who have enjoyed massive rises due to globalisation) it is all about rewarding the talent and seems to ‘have little input into inflation.

The hypocrisy about one of the benefits of Brexit, regardless of whether you view Brexit as a negative overall, is startling. And real economists (who put their names to their views), whom I am happy to link to, admit that Brexit has (to some, unexpectedly) benefited many low paid workers.

rrhuth · 09/10/2021 06:59

If you say so @TheReluctantPhoenix

I see there are bus routes being cut in Suffolk now as the drivers leave to be hgv drivers. So the calm, organised Brexit transition continues to progress well.

Keep swallowing the Johnson lies that this chaos was all part of a plan.

rrhuth · 09/10/2021 07:02

Also - there's a big difference between a pay rise due to productivity increase and pay rises due to chasing a small pool of workers. These are economic facts. I know brexiteers don't believe in facts, but they are what they are.