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Politics

How is Sovereignity working out for you?

189 replies

Zeropointzero · 07/10/2021 16:48

Are there any other people who think we have been fed the biggest lie in regards to sovereignity of Britain.I think the current gas chrisis shows,how dependant Britain is on China and Russia and Europe.

OP posts:
DGRossetti · 10/10/2021 15:56

What changes do you want wrt Brexit? Another vote? Or something else

I think it's clear by now that vote was paid for with a dodgy cheque.

madisonbridges · 10/10/2021 18:28

@PersephoneJames
"@madisonbridges of course I welcome your opinion, thank you, although the "ridiculous" comment wasn't great."

😂😂😂 Sorry. 😔

FreshFreesias · 10/10/2021 19:52

@madisonbridges I agree with all of that.
Other environmental reasons for leaving the EU would be that we have now stopped the ruinous subsidy payments to rich landowners. The Duke of Westminster does not need any more tax payers cash, thanks.

We simply couldn’t stop live export of animals while still being in the EU as that would have been illegal.
The gov have promised to ban this vile trade.

Sadly politicians aren’t interested in animal welfare, but pressure on MP’s helps. Knowing they can be voted out at election time focuses the mind. We did not have this democratic recourse with the EU (MEP’s could only vote on legalisation, not propose it).
When will the EU do something about the horrendous supertrawlers decimating the ocean beds?
When will they ban sow crates?
The EU does not care about animals or the environment, having stood by the wholesale destruction of small farms in Eastern Europe. Thanks to the EU, so many British farmers had to destroy their wonderful small apple orchards.
Small does not mean beautiful to these corporate, elitist, I’m alright bastards.

madisonbridges · 10/10/2021 22:25

[quote PersephoneJames]@madisonbridges of course I welcome your opinion, thank you, although the "ridiculous" comment wasn't great.

I am not an expert although I've read a few abstracts of research papers on the impact of Brexit on animal welfare. All talk about how MPs voted to reject the inclusion of animal sentience into the EU withdrawal bill (in 2017). We were world leading, but in March last year, the UK dropped from an A grade in the global assessment of coutries' records on animal welfare to a B grade. One of the key reasons from this was the refusal to transfer to recognition of animal sentience from EU to UK law (other parts were transferred so why not this?) Yes other countries are worse, but it shouldn't be a race to the bottom - we should be hoping for improvement, as there is a really long way to go on animal welfare and going from A to B is the wrong direction!

Already emergency laws have been made to deal with freight crises - drivers' hours have been lengthened, HGV visas offered outside of the normal immigration rules, do you really think it's such a stretch that they won't loosen the live animal transport regulations? The party who support ripping apart woodland animals for japes?

I wouldn't say you're being ridiculous, but I do question the thought processes of someone who doesn't think the EU is democratic but hopes that a politician's wife can influence policy. (In any case, I wouldn't get your hopes up, she's also a feminist and a Warboys victim but Johnson still rejects the idea of misogyny being a hate crime.)[/quote]
@PersephoneJames I guess I shouldn't have said 'don't be ridiculous', but I get frustrated by the quality of reporting and the fact that readers believe the headlines if it fits their bias. It's so much easier if you don't like Johnson or Corbyn (leaving out Starmer because he hasn't actually mentioned much policy yet) just to go with a headline rather than seek out the facts. I'm not a Corbynite but I heard him talk about interesting ideas that I'd like to have heard being engaged with by the Tories. Instead the anti Labour press seized on the ideas and instead of explaining and exploring them, they were just ridiculed so they just disappeared. In the same way Theresa May tried to tackle social care. I wasn't sold on her idea but at least it got the ball rolling. What happened? Corbyn nicknamed it as a dementia tax, the press got hold of it, and social care was off the agenda again. Another example. The National Grid said that energy was under pressure because of a fire destroying one of the undersea cables but they were confident in supply and there'd be no blackouts. On MN posters come on saying the National Grid had announced there going to be blackouts. The absolute opposite of what the NG said. And to add to that, they made out it was a Brexit issue when it was a burned out cable. I honestly believe that if a news outlet reported that Johnson was bringing in a law that every first born needed to be sacrificed at Samhain and then served up with roast potatoes and haggis, some people on MN would just repeat that. They wouldn't say, "That sounds odd, I'll just check it out." They'd just repeat it because they don't like Johnson, so let's believe it.
So I was disappointed in your comment. You're obviously an intelligent person who is interested in animal welfare. Did it not sound strange for adults to claim that mammals dont feel pain? Didn't it make you think that there may have been an exaggeration or a misreporting of the truth? When you posted on here, did you not think to check out the accuracy of a highly dubious story before repeating it and alleging it to be true?
I don't blame you, because I'm guilty of it too, although I am trying to be better. We're all being set up by the media to just listen to soundbites and not question deeper. How does this serve any of us? It used to be that our news came in daily newspapers that were read and fact-checked. Long articles and not just sound bites because it seems lots of us can't concentrate on more than 5 sentences. Now anyone can print anything and they do it as quickly as they can to get the clicks before anyone else and there's no-one overseeing the honesty of what's being written.
So again, I apologise for telling you not to be ridiculous: it was disrespectful. I should just have informed you of the facts as I saw it and left it at that.

madisonbridges · 11/10/2021 00:08

@PersephoneJames. I just wrote a long post separately apologising for using the word ridiculous because I didn't want to mix it in with our animal welfare discussion. I hope that's OK.

This turned out to be a lot longer than it should be!! I won't be offended if you don't read and don't reply. 😀

First off, I have to say I used to be an expert in this field but I've not been working in this sphere for a while so I accept some laws will have changed. So I wouldn't say I'm an expert anymore.

From what you're saying, I think you've accepted that the Tories never said animals don't feel pain. The 2006 animal welfare codes, in fact most animal welfare legislation, uses the words causing animal unnecessary suffering. It's true that it doesn't include the word 'sentient' but the fact the codes say animals can suffer, actually covers that animals are sentient. In fact the looseness of the term is very beneficial in prosecutions because it can encompass so much. There is no actual definition of unnecessary suffering. It's determined by vets, independent or govt employed. I think we can trust that they understand that animals feel pain. However, there is a bill being introduced that will state that animals, probably mammals (poor sea creatures) are sentient.

There were three countries with the UK in the top tier of animal welfare standards: Austria, New Zealand and Switzerland. All of them were A rated but were downgraded to B, except New Zealand....which was downgraded to the C list. So we're still world-leading, we're just leading on a B instead of an A. The API criticised that the word sentient was omitted from legislation but accepted at the same time that using the word sentient was symbolic rather than practical and that it didn't affect the high standards of animal welfare that existed in the UK. As I said earlier, new legislation does include the word sentient but the problem has been the delay getting new laws through parliament because of covid taking priority. I think that's why all the countries got downgraded. Not because their practices got worse, but because they couldn't pass legislation to make it even better. Except New Zealand which was criticised for not out-lawing cruel practices! Yikes! I hope, however, that you feel better that UK welfare standards have not slipped because of Brexit, its more than even tighter legislation which is slated to be introduced has not made its way through Parliament as yet.

I can sort of see why temporary changes have been made to lorry drivers' hours. The changes aren't dramatic but I can understand why lorry drivers aren't happy with driving an extra hour a day a couple of times a week. I wouldn't be happy! I haven't see any changes to the amount of hours animals can be transported. And in fact if they tried to change it, drivers would be fined in the EU countries they entered because the 28hr rule is hasn't been changed in those countries. When new legislation passes, animal transit hours will be shorter here than in the EU so it looks to me like they're tightening legislation rather than loosening it so far. But I don't know if they'll keep to the legislation any more than you don't know they won't.

As for fox hunting, I would go even further and ban trail hunting too which is just a back door to fox hunting IMO. I don't believe that fox hunting is popular with Tory voters. I'm disgusted every time it gets even mentioned in the HofC.

I didn't vote for Brexit as you pointed out but I am not a lover of the EU and its over-bloated and shambolic system of administration costing £100m moving between Brussels and Strasbourg. Its democracy is pretty shadowy and difficult to figure out but I wouldn't say its totally undemocratic. However, that's a side issue. I don't believe for a minute that Glenys Kinnock, an engaged party activist in her own right, didn't influence Neil; or that Cherie Blair didn't nudge Tony into introducing Human Rights issues from which she then earned millions prosecuting the UK under those very laws her husband had introduced. Lol. So if Carrie Johnson can get stronger animal welfare laws introduced, I'd not be complaining about democracy. I'd be cockahoop. Wouldn't you be?

As I say I've worked in the sphere of animal welfare under different political parties. My experience is it's a mistake to let party political loyalties be part of the argument. It stops you looking objectively at what's happening. You start to make judgements on the party rather than the policy. I'm sure you agree it's fantastic that we lead the world in animal welfare and it's to be celebrated. But there's so much more to be done. George Eustice is introducing new legislation for animal welfare, both domestic and wild, at home and abroad, which is great IF it makes it through. But I already know it still won't be enough for me.

I'm not getting into misogyny etc because then this becomes political and personal and for me animal welfare is too important to get bogged down in that. (Oops, I sound like zealot! Haha.)

PersephoneJames · 11/10/2021 10:40

@madisonbridges thank you. It is a passionate subject and both of us want the same thing - for me to be wrong! I am more of a pessimist, but I like to think pessimistics are more often pleasantly surprised and optimists more often let down Grin

I am not an expert in the field at all, but I do work in academia so tend to go for research papers over newsbites - I'll link to the two sources I've read recently - one from a US source link here and this one on researchgate - I don't have the time for full on verification but know that there is at least some scrutiny subjected to academic papers, more than just headlines at least. I'd be interested to know what you think. Obviously the researchgate has a bias (that is clear from the title) but the US one is more open. I will also admit to skimming large parts of the main body because I have a huge pile of papers in my own field to read as part of the day job!

On the point of the downgrade - of course it is wonderful to be world leading, but that doesn't mean we don't have a way to go. We were world leading in science before we even knew about gravity! I guess I just don't see how being out of the EU can be good for animals (Austria being better - I HOPE we end live trade but couldn't we have done so anyway? Is it another empty promise?) but I do worry that it could do worse - even if the downgrade is just a timescale thing - I find it much more difficult to separate the issue from politics than you, because the people in charge of animal welfare don't have the best record for protecting the vulnerable. Also, animals don't have a nationality, so if a animal-loving nation like the UK no longer holds lobbing power as part of a bigger bloc, this can't be good for animals in Spain or Romania, for example. I wouldn't be surprised if the 28 hour rule was one that the UK had a big influence in getting implemented, although I don't know enough about it.

Of course I'd be thrilled if Carrie managed to influence Johnson if she did it the way I wanted him influenced, just as I'd be pleased if the House of Lords or even the Queen overthrew something I disagreed with, but it wouldn't be right.

Thank you again.

Cascascascas · 13/10/2021 05:38

@Zeropointzero

Just come back from business trip around France Germany etc and it’s shows what a shit show the UK is.

Brexiteers say it’s the global issue. Utter BS as the rest of Europe is not in the mess we are.

Makes me so mad.

You know this government is useless. We even did the worst with Covid

jgw1 · 13/10/2021 07:23

[quote Cascascascas]@Zeropointzero

Just come back from business trip around France Germany etc and it’s shows what a shit show the UK is.

Brexiteers say it’s the global issue. Utter BS as the rest of Europe is not in the mess we are.

Makes me so mad.

You know this government is useless. We even did the worst with Covid[/quote]
Could you elaborate in what way are we in a mess that the rest of Europe is not?

LemonTT · 13/10/2021 07:55

[quote ChocolateDeficitDisorder]**@Zeropointzero I don’t understand why you want Scotland to rejoin the EU, thereby losing its independence and freedom to make decisions that benefit Scotland.

The majority of us in Scotland didn't have a problem with being in the EU before, and we would still prefer to be in it than not.

Many of the EU 'decisions' did benefit Scotland, and as we can clearly see now, the decisions made by WM most certainly do not.

Independence from the UK ASAP, then back in the EU ASAP and we'll try to forget brexit ever happened.[/quote]
Ah when nationalism isn’t nationalism. Good luck with joining the Euro.

PersephoneJames · 13/10/2021 08:34

No @Cascascascas - England is the freest of all the European countries, David Frost said so in Portugal yesterday! Grin

Which isn’t true - Denmark, for example.

Cascascascas · 14/10/2021 07:02

@jgw1

Well no empty selves
State of the roads
State of Covid
Litter

To name a few

madisonbridges · 14/10/2021 09:10

[quote Cascascascas]@jgw1

Well no empty selves
State of the roads
State of Covid
Litter

To name a few[/quote]
The state of the roads and litter is because of Brexit?

3luckystars · 14/10/2021 17:44

Yes it is and also headlice

madisonbridges · 14/10/2021 21:57

I see. I posted a birthday card today thinking it was the 16th tomorrow and now it's going to be a day early. Fucking Brexit moving the days around.

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