Shy tory

[bigspagbol]

Any shy tories out there?
Just to get this straight - I believe in helping people just not people being forced/paid to help people. If it doesn't come from the heart it's not worth having.
I feel like people don't think I like people. On the contrary. I believe the benefit system keeps poor people poor.
Self interest is healthy and only when you have everything you need can you give to other people.
I just thinks it makes for a better society.

?

Having a second child has v little to do with taxation and everything to do with the cost of affordable housing whether renting or buying.

Oh and childcare - affordable that is.

@ElonMask the Tories at the end of the twentieth century were VERY different from the ones at the start. It's a bit of an odd point to make really.

*bigspagbol

I think its awful! But i also think that it's awful that if someone wants another child and cant afford one because taxes are too high - that this is bad too.
What do you suggest?*

I beg your pardon?

You are seriously trying to equate WANTING another child with a disabled person's NEEDS?

Guess what, as you have said yourself, we don't all get what we want do we? And if you had another child, as you said yourself, you would only then want something else.

You are making the embarrassing faux pas of thinking that your wants are equal to another's needs. They aren't. Even the Tory party don't go that far!

Are you aware that the prevailing theme of your posts creates an impression of "me, me, me, I want, I want"? Of spite?

I am SURE that isn't your intention, but perhaps it may be, on reflection, why other people "make you feel bad", as you put it?

Sorry berries

GrammarTeacher

How is it an odd point to make ? Unless the state of British society and the country itself matches your hyperbole about how evil and nasty and spiteful the conservative party are, then you need to explain how such a party have governed for so long over a country that most people think is a pretty decent one to live in.

Plus, if you want another child, by your own arguments, you should surely stop blaming taxation for the problem (that isn't the problem, by the way) and get yourself into a career which pays more than minimum wage?

As you said.....it is ok for people to want something, it isn't ok to expect other people to provide for it. Doesn't that apply to you.

However, I am done. I am disgusted and horrified by the attitudes expressed and suggest that feeling shame is entirely appropriate.

Youre so refreshing elon. This is a very good country.

I don't know what millionaires need or want but if I was a millionaire I know I'd want to be a billionaire.

That’s really really sad.
And also the root of everything wrong with the world, we can’t just keep growing we have to have a point where we have enough.

Having a system that only relies on growth is preposterous, we only have so many resources and we have many people on the planet to share with.
With automation coming in we need to seriously rethink our attitudes to work and value in our society or we’ll create a huge underclass if people who there are no jobs for.

The cognitive dissonance is strong in this one, Master Yoda.

Cognitive dissonance if you ask me is simultaneously holding the belief that the UK is generally a nice place to live and that the belief it has mostly been governed in the past 60 odd years by a party of nasty, evil, greedy cunts.

ElonMask it hasn't been the past 60 years though. Thatcher brought in trickle down in 1979. Which demonstrably doesn't work.

Prior to that, there was far more societal consensus in the Post War period. Both sides of the house worked for the many and not the few, by and large. They may have disagreed on how to do it, but it was all still based within similar economic principles.

It has hugely gone awry since 1979. With Blair continuing Thatcher's neo liberal approach to the economy.

I would happily live under a post war Tory government. Seems like the Garden of Eden compared to what we have now.

Cognitive dissonance if you ask me is simultaneously holding the belief that the UK is generally a nice place to live and that the belief it has mostly been governed in the past 60 odd years by a party of nasty, evil, greedy cunts.

You said 'since the end of the war' earlier, so breaking that down:

Labour 1945-1951
Conservative 1951-1964
Labour 1964-1970
Conservative 1970-1974
Labour 1974-1979
Conservative 1979-1997
Labour 1997-2010
Con/LD coalition 2010-2015
Conservative 2015-present

So by my reckoning that's just over half that time with a Conservative minority or majority government. Stretching 'mostly' a bit.

More to the point, though: for every single one of those years we've been governed by politicians, a group you have described as 'crap' and 'useless'. By your own logic, isn't it taking a great deal of cognitive dissonance on your part to claim the UK is still a nice place to live? However can this be, when it's been governed by (hack, spit) politicians?

53rdWay

Well I count 30 years of labour Vs 43 for conservative, 38 if you don't count the years DC was in coalition with Cleggy. Either way, a clear and substantive majority. Perhaps you could explain how that is an abuse of "mostly" in any way, shape or form ?

I'm not being a hypocrite, I think many of our politicians are incompetent, but they are not evil and hell bent on causing harm to the poorest people in society out of hatred and spite as is being claimed here. I also do not think the government is as responsible for the success and achievements of the British people as they would have us believe. But giving them more power and longing for bigger government is not good IMO.

Perhaps you could explain how that is an abuse of "mostly" in any way,

I don’t think 38 years vs 30 years counts as ‘mostly been governed by the Conservatives’, in the same way I don’t think it would be accurate to say the last Conservative majority in the House of Commons meant Parliament was ‘mostly conservative MPs’.

I also don’t think that if you disagree with a party and its policies, that means you think each and every member of that government is personally evil and acting out of hatred and spite. Policies can be well-intended and still horrendously destructive. Politicians the same. For example, I think Jeremy Corbyn’s probably a nice bloke, but I also think he’s a shit leader of the Opposition and doing nothing good for the Labour party.

I think it is unreasonable of you to object my usage of the word "mostly" given its meaning. In the last 40 years it 27 v 13, that is mostly in my book. But nice try.

You are fudging things anyway, my question was how the UK can have made the Tories the most successful political party and be a nice place to live, somewhere you might even be ... shudder... proud of,when they are so wide of the mark (in your book) and downright evil (in others).

there is nothing SHY about you op -shy tory indeed!

Hey now, that’s moving the goalposts. First you said since the war, then the last 60 years, now the last 40. Why not make it the last 20 years and put Labour ahead while you’re at it?

how the UK can have made the Tories the most successful political party and be a nice place to live

In general, governments will only promise what the public will vote for, and they’ll only go as far right/left on any given issue as the electorate will stand. And Parliament has sovereignty, not Government. So whether it’s Labour or Conservative in power, any policies they present will be tempered by a) what they think will get them elected in the first place and b) what they can get through Parliament.

Do I think everything the Conservatives have done has been good for the country? No, obviously not - look at child poverty rates going up since Labour, homelessness rates ditto, productivity still limping along, how we’re currently being an international laughing-stock for making such a hash out of Brexit. But there are limits to what they or any other party can do to totally ruin the country single-handed, luckily.

I am a bit puzzled by your logic, though, which seems to be ‘if you think the country’s a nice place to live then you can’t really criticise the main political parties that have been in power recently’. By that logic Labour’s been mostly in power for the last 20 years, so you must therefore not think they’re wrong?

It's not moving the goalposts at all!!!! The conservative party are the most successful political party in the UK and have been in power significantly more than any of their rivals..that was my point as you well knew but go on argue against that.

Do you still disagree with that ? Perhaps you think the party in power does not have the most infuence ?

I didn't say you can't criticise them FFS. It's the nature of the criticism. It's one thing saying I don't think new labour should have allowed so many immigrants into the UK, it would be quite another if I said that new labour were cunts and were hell bent on replacing the indigenous population of the UK.

that was my point as you well knew but go on argue against that.

Your point was that they had ‘mostly’ been in power ‘since the war’. Then it was that they’d mostly been in powe for the last 60 years, which would take the post-war Attlee government and all those social reforms out of the equation. Then it was the last 40 years, which means you start counting from the start of the Thatcher years but don’t count the Labour government in the years before... and so on. But you don’t want to just count the last 20 years, because then Labour’s ahead.

if I said that new labour were cunts and were hell bent on replacing the indigenous population of the UK.

You're the only one who’s used the word ‘cunt’ here (albeit you’ve attributed that to other people). The poster you were criticising for saying the Tories were personally and universally evil earlier wasn’t even saying that - she said she had a lot of time for the pre-Thatcher party and it would be unfair to blame all Tories for the current mess.

I certainly would not accuse you of saying or thinking anything so extremist and vile as ‘new labour were cunts and were hell bent on replacing the indigenous population of the UK‘, either. I mean, gosh. Who thinks like that?

We need a pay rise but we cant afford one as a country

But we can afford to top up the MP's salary?

Your point was that they had ‘mostly’ been in power ‘since the war’. Then it was that they’d mostly been in powe for the last 60 years

No, it wasn't. Pick whatever time frame you like. My point was that the conservative party has had more electoral success and therefore has been in power more often and exerted influence over the country than the labour party. Quite why you find this even remotely controversial is beyond me.

The 2nd point is that the language used to describe the conservative party and those who vote for them is uniquely hostile. You don't have to look very hard to find them described as cunts. On this thread they've been called selfish, nasty, ignorant, greedy and told that they should be ashamed of themselves. My question was simply how such a staggeringinly awful group of people had managed to get voted in so often and how the UK was anything other than a complete shit hole, let alone a nice place to live, given the influence "Tories" have had over it.

You didn't answer it, and instead decided to try and tell me what my point was and that I had used the word mostly incorrectly. Fail.

No, it wasn't. Pick whatever time frame you like.

OK I pick the last 20 years. Labour in power for 12 of those, Con/LD coalition for 5, Con alone for 3.

You don't have to look very hard to find them described as cunts.

You have to look beyond this thread, though, so why are you criticising people on this thread for using it and asking them to defend such language?

On this thread they've been called selfish, nasty, ignorant, greedy and told that they should be ashamed of themselves.

I counted:
“Selfish Tory” - used once, to describe the OP, who isn’t a politician
“Nasty” - used once to describe the Conservatives as the “Nasty Party”, used again by someone saying both parties were competing for that title, and then used by you multiple times.
“Ignorant” - not used to describe the Conservative party or Conservative politicians”
“Greedy” - you’re the only person who’s used the word at all on this thread that I can see.
“ashamed of themselves” - again, nobody’s said this of the Conservative party; one person said this of the OP.

I am sure you will be happy to learn that MN is not nearly as derogatory and insulting towards the Conservatives as you have imagined!

A person arguing in good faith against the statement that "conservative party has enjoyed more electoral success than the labour party" would go back to the foundation of the labour party and not discount the majority of UK elections both parties had stood in. But of course you are not interested in arguing in good faith because you know that statement is true.

Perhaps I misjudged the tone of the thread and the wider attitude on MN to Tories, but I doubt many of the posters who were critical of the OP think the conservative are all right really, just a little misguided. I don't believe you think that either.