Trump (Part 2)

[claig]

More on the meaning of Trump, the Trumpsters and Trumpism

The people are so fed up with what is going on and the political class that Trump turned up and insulted them, without detailed policies because he didn't need them, all he had to do was insult them and the people said "finally someone who says what I am thinking". The people dislike teh political class because they think they are liars and Trump just said "they are liars", "the edia are liars", "we are in a room full of liars" to the media, "they are stupid people" and that was enough to make the people think that he was on their side because he shared their emotions, he was on their wavelength.

From what I have seen of Banks on TV he has a bit of that, but backs down in the end, so I don't think he personally has the ability to insult like Trump did. But an insult comic would probably win the election.

"I don't think anyone discussing it here sees it that way. "

Pardon me for judging you by what you say. If you had provided any other argument I might have come to a different conclusion.

Sadly even your last post reinforces my view. Trump is a fascist is the only message it conveys.

fourmummy: "It's not a regression because we will incorporate what we learned about postmodernism (relativism) into our future"
The future you have described previously on these threads does sound like a regression actually. With or without relativism.

"The future you have described previously on these threads does sound like a regression actually. With or without relativism."

Only for someone stuck in identity politics. :-P

'She is not my voice.'

I never said I was. I have just said what I think about why Trump won and predicted that he would win from the very start, just like Rochelle (of the Stump for Trump Sisters) said to Diamond when she first saw Trump on TV announcing that he would run.

Trump is a fascist is the only message it conveys.

Or you could read. It conveys that Trump's message has fascist tones.

To start with I don't equate fascist with "evil". It's one of many totalitarian regime and systems.

But it's certainly a message that worries me and that I reject as a choice.

Using the word fascist simply summarises a whole set of issues that are worrying about Trump.

OTOH, some people have put here Establishment and Elites as evil vs Trump as good. When it's not at all the case. Funny how that dichotomy is not even mentioned or criticised.

Lots of his policies sound good, but there is not enough detail to many of them to make them credible.
Some sound great, but it is hard to see where the money will come from.
Some directly contradict each other.
And some are awful.
What do Chris and the other defenders of internet freedom make of number 24 on the list?
How do number 41 through to 44 tie into your fears of McCarthyism?
www.politiplatform.com/trump

Also interesting in the context of the criticism of the Politically Correct, that Spin's and fourmummy's posts (and claig's too, in fact) are the ones that read the most like Doublespeak.

'OTOH, some people have put here Establishment and Elites as evil vs Trump as good'

Because that is what Trump voters thought. You disagree, but Trump won the election because in the real world, that is what many people thought. It is also one of the reasons that we won in Brexit, because a large part of the vote was against Cameron, Goldman Sachs, the Bank of England, the Unions, the IMF, the EU and the Establishment.

Politics is about the real world and real feelings and emotions of the people and all the Blairite spin in the world and John Major talk couldn't get them to vote for Remain.

Claig, you have repeatedly claimed you are "the voice of the people". I am a member of "the people". Predicting a win (although it was far from the sweeping victory you predicted) may mean you have your finger on the pulse of populism, but it doesn't mean you know what will happen next, and it certainly doesn't make you "right" in every sense of the word.

Kaija There's nothing wrong with nationalism, except the word has been made dirty by people who do not want anyone to be proud and supportive of their country, but to continually trash it.

"proud and supportive of their country" = patriotism.
Nationalism is beyond that.

'Claig, you have repeatedly claimed you are "the voice of the people". I'

I have never said "I am the voice of the people". Please quote where I said it.

'(although it was far from the sweeping victory you predicted)'

I didn't say it would be sweeping. Please quote where I did. Trump was up against the entire world's elite and the entire media, but he has still swept the Congress and Senate and got to teh strongest Republican position since the 1920s as well as winning back rust belt states that the Republicans haven't won for decades.

'may mean you have your finger on the pulse of populism, but it doesn't mean you know what will happen next, and it certainly doesn't make you "right" in every sense of the word.'

I didn't say it does. I think the EU will be gone within 2 years from my understanding of what is happening in the world and I think Trump will be the driving force that finishes it off. But I may be wrong.

Nationalism can have its place. It can be about a nation's identity (even if not a country).
But it can go very wrong. It has been at the base of terrorist groups, open racism, even genocide.
Certainly a concept that should be treated in politics with great care. Not with oversweeping generalisations that can be taken the wrong way by the wrong groups (such as white supremacists) and not clarified. But it suited Trump to flirt with those extreme concepts. He, and his supporters, can't complain when people react against it.

"Using the word fascist simply summarises a whole set of issues that are worrying about Trump. "

Lol.

Didn't think I'd have to explain this but..

I'm taking the mick out of you because you appear to think that using the word fascist as often as possible is persuasive. That it is the focus of debate, merely outputting insults.

I think it's ok to be really alarmed at the rise of facism and the far right

I am and have been alarmed at the rise of the Far Left, and its deliberate policies to kill discussion, dissuade proper debate about many issues and to hide the huge increase in crime among the newcomers to our country.

Some of you on here, the ones who are very easy with using words such as 'fascist' know nothing about fascism, and if any of you are English-British how can you possibly take the line that you do? My parents where from oversease, but it strikes me that I am more loyal to this country than any of you English. If you support continuing the deliberate erosion of GB which the Blair govt started then there is something seriously amiss with you.

Claig:
"the people this...." "the people that".... constantly throughout your posts implies that you speak for "the people".
Plus at around 11pm last night in response to the question "does it ever get tiring being the voice of the people?"
You replied:
"No, someone has to tell it like it is. If the cap fits, swear it"

'Tony Blair Says He Does Not Understand Politics Anymore'

www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/2016/02/24/tony-blair-says-he-does-not-understand-politics-anymore_n_9304178.html

Blair is "one of the people" but he doesn't understand politics any ore because he doesn't understand "the people". He understands himself, possibly, and he understands the Blairites who think like him, but he doesn't understand the mass of the people who have shaken politics to the core.

I think, amazingingly enough, that I understand politics better than him, with all his money, with all his PPEs, with all his bigwig contacts and experience, because I understand the "people" better than him.

I predicted UKIP would win the EU election in 2014 or 2015, I predicted Corbyn the 100-1 outsider would win, I predicted Brexit, I obviously predicted that Corbyn would beat Owen Banter and I predicted Trump, and Blair got all of those wrong.

My new predcition is total end of the EU within 2 years, helped along by Trump. That is really going out on a limb and I doubt Blair could imagine that.

'the people this...." "the people that".... constantly throughout your posts implies that you speak for "the people".'

No it doesn't, i am not a politician, i don't speak for the people, I am an observer of politics, i am like Scott Adams, Dilbert creator, observing and commenting on what i think will hapen and why I think it will lhappen based on my understanding of the people, including an understanding of people I disagree with, like you and Blair.

'Plus at around 11pm last night in response to the question "does it ever get tiring being the voice of the people?"
You replied:
"No, someone has to tell it like it is. If the cap fits, swear it"'

Yes, that was a joke to an insulting question "if i ever get tired of it", and realising that you might not get the joke, I tried to make it obvious by using swear instead of wear in

"if the cap fits, swear it"

but I see it didn't work, you didn't get it

'Nationalism can have its place. It can be about a nation's identity (even if not a country).
But it can go very wrong. It has been at the base of terrorist groups, open racism, even genocide.'

Oh for goodness sakes. I'm rooting for you guys to contribute reasoned argument without resorting to these names. Too black and white. I like to read arguments on all sides.

Well said Southallgirl.

Can we really call them the left anymore though? Surely a group shilling for the establishment is actually right wing, and the insurgent movement, the populists the left?

As I've pointed out most of Trump's headline policies are of the left, and his main message being anti authoritarian.

'"the people this...." "the people that".... constantly throughout your posts implies that you speak for "the people".'

The 'people versus the elite' is a good way of putting it, but I think the phenomenon is an ongoing process and still being identified , and may be articulated differently down the line.

I'm taking the mick out of you because you appear to think that using the word fascist as often as possible is persuasive. That it is the focus of debate, merely outputting insults.

I don't know who you think you're taking the mick out of, but it's not me, certainly. If anything, you're taking the mick out of yourself, because what you are saying makes no sense in the context of my posts.

I am only replying to your posts, or have employed the word when addressing other's positions about this.
I haven't said that Trump is a fascist. Or that his supporters were.

I have certainly said that his position is dangerous. And that some people he's getting in power are dangerous.

Your accusations about insults are the ones shutting down the debate. Funnily enough.
Because any criticism of Trump will be seen as an insult. Any comparison to history will be called an insult.

I think Trump will sort a deal out between the Jewish people and the Palestinian

I don't believe this is possible for one simple reason, Claig. The Arabs do not want Jews anywhere near them. The last 40 yrs of meetings, negotiations, cease-fires and renewal of fighting confirms it; Arabs have been delaying and playing for decades in the pretence that they actually do want to co-exist with the Jews. Some representatives of ME nations have said that they do not want Israel in their world and will fight to the end for israel's destruction