Trump (Part 2)

[claig]

More on the meaning of Trump, the Trumpsters and Trumpism

Lol

"It still doesn't mean that Trump's proposals and demeanour can't be compared to fascism."

I only had to go a page back!

Lweji - I am genuinely not doublespeakin but am enjoying a conversation with all of you. I use terms that are more or less in the public domain although admittedly, they are tough to get to grips with.

Ok, so let's see:
it's forbidden to mention the words fascist or nationalism in whatever context.
criticising Trump is shutting down debate and freedom of speech and it equates with the far left now.

Trump may have listed some policies that are more left than right, but his key messages weren't at all. That's what people voted on, not the fine print detail.

'I think Trump will sort a deal out between the Jewish people and the Palestinian

I don't believe this is possible for one simple reason, Claig. The Arabs do not want Jews anywhere near them. '

Southallgirl, I am not an expert on it, but my guess is the Arabs will have no choice in the matter. Trump is as tough as nails and he has already shocked the world by saying he will recognise Jerusalem as the capital of Israel. I think he will bring peace to Syria and in return they will go along with a deal, I think the Saudis and Qataris will have no choice because everyone knows about them in the pay for play Clinton Foundation and funding Jihadis and Isis, and with Trumoo that whole thing is over. The Egyptians will go along because they just want development etc. The Iranians and Hezbollah will be more difficult but it depends if Trump can bring them back into the trading family of nations etc and I think Putin will be right beside Trump putting pressure on Iran and doing what Trump wants. I don't think the Palestinians will get a great deal but all the other countries may accept a Trump deal and then everyone can get back to getting along and doing business with some deals in it for everyone. If anyone can pull it off, Trump can.

'Some representatives of ME nations have said that they do not want Israel in their world and will fight to the end for israel's destruction'

They will have no choice if America and Russia work together an bring Egypt along which they will. The Saudis will do as they are told because of teh whole Jihadi/Isis backing thing and the Clinton Foundation which they won't want looking into too closely. It is really only Iran that may be a problem and I think Trump will talk tough but cut a deal for them that will bring them along.

It can't go on forever, it has to be solved and I think Trump has the cajones to do it.

Spinflight

You think that was a good example?
Newsflash. I use the word in my posts. Did you look why I applied that word there?

"What do Chris and the other defenders of internet freedom make of number 24 on the list?
How do number 41 through to 44 tie into your fears of McCarthyism?"

24 I agree with. Absolutely close down jihadi recruitment sites, child pornography sites, human trafficking sites etc etc

41 to 44 its semantics.

www.npr.org/2016/06/14/482011041/radical-islam-or-radical-islamism-it-depends-who-you-ask

One issue is, as long as Isil call themselves Isil, then weve got an uphill battle to ask them to use a more PC name, but perhaps we could sit down over coffee and ask them?

43 for me is the only one thats possibly contentious as its so broad. But Ill accept Trumps 'temporary' position. Considering we're all faced with a leaky sieve situation, perhaps the only way to is pull up the drawbridge until someone can demonstrate that they do indeed have control of who is entering the country. Thats all any one wants, the ability to know who is entering the country and why. This (#43) in my view, is a reflection and a response to the clearly failed processes that are allegedly already in place, not some racist anti muslim sentiment youre attempting to make it.

"Because any criticism of Trump will be seen as an insult. Any comparison to history will be called an insult."

I've raised plenty of criticisms of Trump and the problems he is likely to have delivering on his promises. Also of his cabinet picks.

Maybe if I'd also claimed that his dog was a fascist you might have noticed.

Southallgirl, I am not an expert on it, but my guess is the Arabs will have no choice in the matter.

Nice thoughts about the subject, claig. But reality tends to get in the way. I also doubt Trump understands the Middle East at all.
But, we'll see. Perhaps he will win the Nobel Peace prize in a couple of years.

You have got Huma Abedin's link with teh Muslim Brotherhood, Turkey, teh Saudis and Qataris all backing different Islamic factions and some backing the Brotherhood etc, the Clinton Foundation if that is looked at etc

Trump may cut the whole crap out and end all Muslim Brotherhood stuff, who I think are backers of Hamas etc

Syria will be happy to go along with that, because the Muslim Brotherhood have been backed to destroy Syria. So all of it may come to an end with Trump.

Trump may cut links with any regime backing fundamentalists and then they will have to sort the fundamentalists out themselves and then we might end up with business people everywhere like Trump who just want to get along and cut deals.

Hence the tears and cognitive dissonance when people stubbornly vote the wrong way

A few people on MN knew that Trump would win but political journalists and analysts did not. How can that possibly be? All of them should be fired by their employers - I would. They were so in their groupthink, virtue-signalling to each other, talking bollox to each other at the bar, that they didnt pick up - in their gut (isnt that the place where journalists famously get their intuition?) - or feel the zeitgeist. Tossers, the lot of them.

OK, not all criticism, then. Just about the most worrying aspects. :)

'I also doubt Trump understands the Middle East at all. '

I don't think he has to. They better understand him. He probably doesn't understand who Philip Hammond, David Davies, Liam Fox and Boris Johnson are. They will have to understand him. All Trump knows is that Farage is a top honcho, and the Peoples rmy are heroes who helped deliver Brexit, which is one of his favourite topics as he likes to call himself Mr Brexit, which Farage is going to have to accept gracefully as Farage now has to call himself min-Brexit, and that is what they all have to get used to.

When Trump flies into the Middle East, the Red Sea will part and they will all lay out a red carpet. There is no more "we are led by very, very stupid people", this is Trump

"We can't beat naybody, we can't beat Isis. Give me a break"

All the stupidity and pay for play and nonsense is over. Things will change so fast, the world will never have seen anything like it.

Chris, "Absolutely close down jihadi recruitment sites, child pornography sites, human trafficking sites etc etc"

That's not what it says though is it? (It doesn't even mention child abuse sites and human trafficking). I agree with closing down those sites (although it is hard when many will be based abroad.)
It says: close parts of the internet to prevent ISIS from attracting recruits. "parts" of the internet is not "sites", and is dangerously vague. Yes, I agree that it is vitally important to stop ISIS recruiting new members. But who decides which "parts" of the internet to shut down? Access to all the sites from a particular country, perhaps? Access to sites loosely connected with radical theology (and who decides whats radical?) I am just very surprised that you think this is fine when you seem so concerned about other threats to internet freedom.

And the other policies I highlighted come much closer to McCarthyism than the examples you gave earlier. And again, it is the vagueness of them which is particularly concerning. Paranoia of Islam and casting suspicion on all Muslims in the name of national security is much more up senator McCarthy's street than criticising the president elect.

"Defeat the ideology of radical Islam as we won the cold war" - so vague, do you think he means using all the tactics used by the US during the cold war? Like...... McCarthyism?

' Perhaps he will win the Nobel Peace prize in a couple of years.'

I hope so. for their sake, they don't want to get on the wrong side of him, he has got an ego bigger than Mount Kilimanjaro and he has been known to bear grudges.

Assange is leading Trump in the polls for Times "Man of the Year"

Trump will not be happy with that. He loves talking about Time Magazine. If anyone can get a tweet out to Assange, maybe they could suggest he withdraw or something, because Trump needs to get that to get off to a good start.

Oh and by the way, "the Arabs" are very far from being a homogenous group, and given I have really tried to avoid generalising all Trump supporters (eg, I have said more than once that I do not think they are all racist) could we stop talking about them as though they are?

I hope so. for their sake, they don't want to get on the wrong side of him, he has got an ego bigger than Mount Kilimanjaro and he has been known to bear grudges
He's suddenly beginning to sound less like our best hope for world peace....

The most significant policies in that list I'd argue are numbers 45, 51 and 144.

Particularly 45 for the long term and 144 due the short term.

American energy dominance isn't just taking about domestically produced oil and gas, it is world wide.

Which does hark back to the almost accidental energy dominance that the United States had during the second world war. Trump clearly sees energy as the source of power in the world, which whilst obvious is a massive change in foreign policy. Huge.

'He's suddenly beginning to sound less like our best hope for world peace....'

It is called realism.

"We're going to build our military up so strong, that nobody, nobody will mess with us, we won't need to use it"

Have you seen Sheriff David Clarke who Trump is meeting on Monday. Nobody, nobody, not one of the elites will dare try any of their tricks with him inside the United States and nobody, nobody will want to mess with Trump outside the United States, and Nigel Farage will be a roving, grinning world fixer (an eminence grise) who has Trump's ear, and the bust of Winston Churchill is going right back into the White House sharpish thanks to Nige and Trump has asked for a framed photo of the famous People's Army that Farage, Steve Bannon and Arron Banks have told Trump so much about.

Amazing times. Some would say "revolutionary". The elites would say "desperate".

Struggling hugely with "The Trump Train. The people are rising and hope is rising in the greatest democracy on earth, the United States and we should all be very grateful for it here in the UK, because Trump will ensure that we too are always free and have free speech in our great democracy too.".

Really? Oh my goodness. I can believe that the current political elite are a bunch of shysters out for their own selves and that capitalism has failed us all. But Trump as the saviour of democracy and free speech? Give me a break. Let's see how he deals with his opponents at home and abroad, then we can talk about democracy and free speech. Let's see if he can treat all non-white citizens of America fairly and equally, let's see if he is prepared to shut down the white supremacists, and remind everyone that America is built upon immigration, and that extends to all, not just white Europeans. Let's see what happens to women's reproductive rights under his administration. That will be true democracy. I am not holding my breath.

Claig? Not sure if you've seen The Donald lately but here's a good laugh

Jill Stein demanding recounts. Where did she get 5 million USD in a matter of days? If votes were recounted Hillary actually conceded during the election. It will make no difference. I guess the whiny liberals need some hope, even if it is false

"Paranoia of Islam and casting suspicion on all Muslims in the name of national security"

Which hate inciting policy number was that Squishy? I missed it.

Spookily enough, we have further tide turning today...

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3975530/Politicians-warned-tone-Brexit-rhetoric-equality-body.html

Hate incitement squishy. Its official.

Southallgirl, that businessman you worked with sounds like he had a real nasty, bigoted streak running through him.

I have to disagree with you if you are suggesting that all Middle Eastern individuals share those views. I know some that don't.
I also have to disagree with you that individuals brought up to hate particular groups can never expunge their hatred. It is possible - it requires a great deal of self reflection, but there is hope for everyone.

Claig: "It is called realism"
Realism!
There is more realism in the Hans Christian Andersen stories you're such a fan of than in most of your posts, Claig.