Will you make it to Heaven? Cont.

[VincitVeritas1]

Feel free to join me in a discussion about Heaven according to the Holy Bible/ Christianity in general.

Apparently not as I can’t seem to bring myself to accept Jesus as my lord and saviour

And what do you think might be holding you back from that? @FatFatMary

Well I’m at the stage where I’m thinking he may be a legitimate God, but that doesn’t necessarily mean I should pledge my soul to him forever. I don’t know what his true intentions are or what the outcome of that could be. I’ve read (supposed, online) scripture that states things such as that in heaven our loved ones that didn’t make it will be erased from memory, another that said those in heaven will watch with joy as those in hell suffer. Im also concerned about losing my freewill, or ending up trapped in a realm of god- worship forever that would stunt my immortal growth. I think if Jesus is a god, and Yahweh is a god, then Allah may be also a true god, and maybe so are the others. I feel the gods may not embody highest truths of creation. Buddhism for example teaches that they are reflections of a universal mind

I wouldn't want to go to heaven tbh. I never fit in with the in crowd , my soul is my own and I'll do my own thing. Travel the stars, meet other souls from other worlds and times. Have fun, maybe come back in the future.

Im also concerned about losing my freewill, or ending up trapped in a realm of god- worship forever that would stunt my immortal growth.

@FatFatMary, I am Christian and think it helps if you think in terms of being in unity with (the triune) God through believing in Christ and what He stands for. If you have unity then your will is the same as God's by choice. If you have unity you can partake in His knowledge which is all encompassing/complete/knowing all things. Worship is a happy, joyous celebration of this. In this context what more immortal growth would you need?

"2 My goal is that they may be encouraged in heart and united in love, so that they may have the full riches of complete understanding, in order that they may know the mystery of God, namely, Christ, 3 in whom are hidden all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge." (Colossians 2:2-3 NIV)

I'm not sure I should be here.
I don't believe in heaven or hell, but I am working on a 'nice' or 'crap' basis.
I've done okay in this life. I've done good for a lot of people, I've been nice. But I've also done wrong, I've been selfish at times. So I think I'm the 'norm', and any afterlife will reflect that.
I have to say, that believer or not, thinking about this really makes you reflect on your life, attitudes and affiliations, so thank you x

John 3:16 says:
For God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten son, so that, whosoever believes on him should not perish, but have eternal life".

It doesn't say:

so that whosoever gives to charity
so that whosoever lives a good life
so that whosoever earns enough points by their good works....

It says whosoever BELIEVES ON HIM.

If you look up the word believe you will see it means to trust in and rely upon with full assurance.

If you believe in your own works, not only are there no clear parameters for you to know how much is good enough, but you are not trusting in HIM. You're trusting in a human (you).

We've all let ourselves down though. Ever tried to keep a New Year's resolution or a new diet for longer than 3 weeks? It's hard to do. Ever had to apologise? We all make mistakes even when we try hard not to. We are imperfect, fallible creatures and we have great sides but also let ourselves down.

So in answer to your question: will I make it to heaven? Then yes if you put your trust in the right person.

Whosoever trusts in HIM.

Trusts he is who he says he is (for God cannot lie)

Trust he did what he did for us (the ultimate sacrifice to pay our debt of sin)

Trust that we are incapable of earning our own way, but that eternal life in heaven is a free gift that we cannot earn by our good works, like any free gift we accept it or we say no and walk away.

It's quite simple really.

Surely no one really believes this in the 21st century??

I can under hundreds of years ago. But not now!

Seems that most do. Crazy...

Yea , each to their own but to me it’s all fairytale stuff .

I believe in Him but I also believe that there has to be some sort of accountability, hence the purgatory. Believing in God is also believing and following the teachings of Jesus. So I believe people who were intrinsically evil but called themselves Christians didn't quite make the final cut, so to speak.

I won’t. I was a religious child and teenager in a lapsed-Catholic/atheist family and I spend a lot of time in chapel (my choir was there and some of the only remaining people that care about me still are). But I lost my faith. If god exists, he’ll know I don’t believe in Him anyway. I wish I could make myself believe but that first like in the chain of reasoning of believing in god is gone. I believe there is intrinsic good and evil in actions even if we aren’t always the best qualified to see them - think Good Samaritan - and I try to do them, and be truly sorry when I fail to, but I just don’t believe in god in my heart, and that’s the only think that matters.

I won't but my dh will. I've never met such a genuinely good person. It me to shame but then puts most to shame!

I certainly won't. I'd consider myself agnostic - I sway far more toward atheism, but I'd never claim certainty.

If God was real, he wouldn't like me, and I sure as shit wouldn't like him. I think that would be enough to be issued a firm 'no'.

That's a good explanation @heyhohello.
I think people get hung up about worship in Heaven and see it as a sort of endless, boring, enforced Sunday church service. The word worship is multi faceted; it doesn't just mean singing hymns. The Old Testament Hebrew word for praise (Halal/Hallel, where we get the word Hallelujah from) fits this much better. The Old Testament word for worship (Shachah) means to bow/ prostrate in homage to royalty or God. Worship doesn't have to be confined to a building or a certain ritual. It can include prayer, serving others, singing, dancing, studying Scripture, using spiritual gifts, or more generally a life lived in devotion to God.

@FatFatMary You say you think Jesus might be a legitimate God but not that He is the legitimate God. In the Christian faith, Jesus and Yahweh are one in the same. Why would Allah/ other gods also have to be real in your opinion?

There is a verse in the Bible which may have given rise to the idea that some might be forgotten:

“See, I will create
new heavens and a new earth.
The former things will not be remembered,
nor will they come to mind.
But be glad and rejoice forever
in what I will create,
for I will create Jerusalem to be a delight
and its people a joy."
(Isaiah 65:17-18)

However, this is just after it says, "Whoever invokes a blessing in the land will do so by the one true God; whoever takes an oath in the land will swear by the one true God. For the past troubles will be forgotten and hidden from my eyes."(Isaiah 65:16). Therefore, a more accurate interpretation would be that in Heaven God will leave the baggage of our former lives behind and will remove our transgressions as far as east is from the west (Psalm 103) rather than wiping out our former memories of Earth.

I think your other point about those in Heaven rejoicing over the suffering of the damned comes from the writings of St. Aquinas and others but isn't based in Scripture.

I wouldn't want to go to heaven tbh. I never fit in with the in crowd , my soul is my own and I'll do my own thing. Travel the stars, meet other souls from other worlds and times. Have fun, maybe come back in the future.

@SwordToFlamethrower An interesting perspective. What would the 'in' crowd look like to you? How will your plans for the afterlife look if Jesus exists and the Bible is true? i.e. not a subjective truth.

@Fartooold You're very welcome 😊
I don't believe in heaven or hell, but I am working on a 'nice' or 'crap' basis.
I've done okay in this life. I've done good for a lot of people, I've been nice. But I've also done wrong, I've been selfish at times. So I think I'm the 'norm', and any afterlife will reflect that.
I'm afraid I must challenge this assumption - it isn't a biblical one. As Street Preacher Ray Comfort puts it succinctly:

You have to face a Holy, perfect God on Judgement Day. He sees lust as adultery (Mathew 5:28) and hatred as murder (1 John 3:15). Will you be innocent or guilty? Jesus took your just punishment on the cross and rose again, defeating death, to save you from Hell. Repent (Luke 13:5) and trust in Him today.

Thanks to the other posters for their thoughts. I have limited internet access so can't reply as often as I'd like.

@VincitVeritas1 I love discussing religion with Christians, so forgive me for getting stuck in.

The moral code of Christianity, to me, is spookily similar to the moral code of living with one if not two abusive parents. If you sing praises all day, you get to live forever in ecstasy, and I take your point of it can take other forms than I love you God pure and simple, but that’s still eerily reminiscent of my mother raising me and telling me I owe everything to her - I haven’t got a job, any grades (she’s never even helped me with my homework) or even a boyfriend without her help. And that’s before I start with God holding up His son and saying “look what you made me do” before arranging for him to be crucified. If god is so benevolent and all-powerful (also ideas that come from Aquinas, if you read the Old Testament again you’ll notice he was very much the God of the Jews) he could surely have said “actually everyone gets to come on permanent holiday with me and in the meantime all my special people, and the ones special to me, get an extra-fast transfer to heaven!” Instead of “I’m going literally to crucify my son because that’s the only way I, as the omnipotent ruler of the world, can sort out the fact that you’ve made some mistakes”. The passage of the Bible about the garden of gethsemane always gets me because Jesus - an otherwise perfect and brave human - was begging his own father to spare him the awful fate of crucifixion. God, who couldn’t possibly be harmed because he’d get his son back either way, ignored him even though he must logically have been the one who designed this fate. Yes, Jesus would have been an amazing person to behave like this. Sorry but his dad was being awful. And again - “you made me do this” has been held up before Christians for millennia. It doesn’t negate the fact of God’s existence. It makes him horrible.

I'm always baffled as to why people here in Britain with its temperate climate and 4 seasons, worship a jealous, murderous, manchild desert deity.

Give me Brigit and Cernunnos and lughnassadh and The Morrigan and Avalon. British gods. Pagans don't worship and grovel their gods, we don't fear their wrath, they don't go off knocking up 13 year old girls or having their children murdered, we party with them they are our companions and friends. They understand the land and the people and they are in every tree, rock, animal and plant.

Look to the old gods! Hail the old gods! They were here before the middle Eastern desert god with no name.

@SwordToFlamethrower, I hail from the north. It is likely my ancestors worshipped the Norse Gods. This is a description of how Yule was celebrated (from Wikipedia)

Old Norsee* text[14]
Hollander translation[15]
Þat var forn siðr, þá er blót skyldi vera, at allir bœndr skyldu þar koma sem hof var ok flytja þannug föng sín, þau er þeir skyldu hafa, meðan veizlan stóð. At veizlu þeirri skyldu allir menn öl eiga; þar var ok drepinn allskonar smali ok svá hross; en blóð þat alt, er þar kom af, þá var kallat hlaut, ok hlautbollar þat, er blóð þat stóð í, ok hlautteinar, þat var svá gert sem stöklar; með því skyldi rjóða stallana öllu saman, ok svá veggi hofsins utan ok innan, ok svá stökkva á mennina; en slátr skyldi sjóða til mannfagnaðar. Eldar skyldu vera á miðju gólfi í hofinu ok þar katlar yfir; ok skyldi full um eld bera. En sá er gerði veizluna ok höfðingi var, þá skyldi hann signa fullit ok allan blótmatinn.
It was ancient custom that when sacrifice was to be made, all farmers were to come to the heathen temple and bring along with them the food they needed while the feast lasted. At this feast all were to take part of the drinking of ale. Also all kinds of livestock were killed in connection with it, horses also; and all the blood from them was called hlaut [sacrificial blood], and hlautbolli, the vessel holding the blood; and hlautteinar, the sacrificial twigs [‌aspergills‌]. These were fashioned like sprinklers, and with them were to be smeared all over with blood the pedestals of the idols and also the walls of the temple within and without; and likewise the men present were to be sprinkled with blood. But the meat of the animals was to be boiled and served as food at the banquet. Fires were to be lighted in the middle of the temple floor, and kettles hung over the fires. The sacrificial beaker was to be borne around the fire, and he who made the feast and was chieftain, was to bless the beaker as well as all the sacrificial meat.

@SwordToFlamethrower

My point is sacrifice is a theme of Pagan religions too. Including human sacrifice and child sacrifice. The God I worship willingly sacrificed Himself/His Son.

How do you celebrate Yule?

Got bored any thought youd try to convert us mumsnet sinners again? Because it worked so well last time. 😄

@CeciledeVolangesdeNouveau No problem, I also enjoy a hearty debate! There's a lot to unpack there, so I'm going to have to address your points when time allows.

@SwordToFlamethrower I'm not sure what the temperate climate has to do with it? Like @heyhohello pointed out, pagan worship involved some pretty brutal practices, including the sacrifice of children, particularly after a bad harvest. Worship is also centred around created things, rather than the Creator. The Apostle Paul wrote this about Pagan practices:

"Consider the people of Israel: Do not those who eat the sacrifices participate in the altar? Do I mean then that food sacrificed to an idol is anything, or that an idol is anything? No, but the sacrifices of pagans are offered to demons, not to God, and I do not want you to be participants with demons. You cannot drink the cup of the Lord and the cup of demons too; you cannot have a part in both the Lord’s table and the table of demons." (1 Corinthians 10:18-19).

@copiley695 I have no interest in engaging with hecklers, thank you.

Hecklers 😂You're hardly a performer.

@heyhohello as OP clearly has a busy life - understandable for a Christian at this time of year - would you be willing to share your perspective on why the sacrifice was necessary?
I can just about get my mind around Abraham and Isaac - at that point God was walking around talking to people (metaphorically, but he was very present) and if the person you love most in the world asks you to sacrifice the person you love second most who will then go and live for eternity in bliss, it would probably be horrible but an easy decision to make in the end. But Jesus I just don’t understand. Unless there’s a higher power than God, God must have sat down one day and thought “the only way I can forgive all these people is by getting them to torture my son to death”. Then he basically made that happen - we read in I think Exodus about him deliberately making Pharaoh keep the Israelites captive - he “hardened Pharaoh’s” heart in the version that’s read in my chapel several times over. Then he unleashes a plague. So he clearly has the powers needed to force humans to behave in a way that will cause them harm. In the same way, he put humans in a situation where they’d basically be guaranteed to want to punish Jesus in a way that was standard at the time. He had made them flawed and of course they erred - do current humans generally believe magic tricks are magic tricks?
From the Bible, we learn that God can conjure up the majesty of the entire natural world in six days. It takes your average undergrad that long to write a 2000-word essay. He has awesome powers and every time he gets things wrong he can wipe the slate clean at the cost of thousands or millions of human (and animal in the case of the Flood) lives. But he couldn’t think of a better way to clean the sin slates of humanity than to give up his own son to torturous death? All of us are flawed but “a really good man was killed in extreme pain 2000 years ago” really doesn’t equate to “you are all forgivable”.

Apologies if this came across more aggressive than it was intended - as I said I used to have faith and I have so much respect for those who still do, who with some notable exceptions tend to be lovely people. I also love getting into the nuts and bolts of complex subjects.

@CeciledeVolangesdeNouveau, I often ponder this question myself and I haven't all the answers.

I think as God is all knowing He knew what would happen if He came to live amongst human kind in the flesh as Jesus. He didn't resist, He loved us and this sacrifice shows us up for what we are - flawed. From our limited earthly viewpoint we have crap judgement. So much so we sacrificed God! Even though people had God's laws they managed to twist them to serve their own purposes (power, ego etc). When really we should be operating in love, as Jesus preached.

In the realisation and acknowledgment of our flawed nature and repentance from it in turning to God through following Christ we are forgiven. Christ's sacrifice was needed to get people to acknowledge their flaws and acknowledge God's incredible love in that He is prepared to suffer to the death for us.