Will you make it to Heaven? Cont.

[VincitVeritas1]

Feel free to join me in a discussion about Heaven according to the Holy Bible/ Christianity in general.

I think it might be true we’re part of god. I had an experience once where I was suddenly looking at myself from the perspective of a higher self. I could see many lives of mine being played out simultaneously. And I just felt so much love and compassion for my human self

That sounds lovely, @FatFatMary 🙂.

@FatFatMary that’s beautiful 😀. I think some people experience such things in meditation. I get an intense feeling of love and bliss when singing worship songs in church. It’s beautiful and I feel in such harmony with all the other souls in the room, as if we are vibrating and breathing as one being.

Found this written by a theology student - sorry it’s long but worth reading.

Human beings never asked to be born into this world. They are born with different personalities, differing genetic makeup, various levels of mental and physical health impairment. People are born into unique circumstances, raised within different levels of wealth, influenced by different religions, cultures, nations, schools, hospital care.
In fact, most children are indoctrinated to believe the world, humanity, and life exist in a specific way in which they are born broken, in need to be fixed by a undetectable deity. Where is the evidence that sin exists, who says humanity needs to be saved, who says life was neant to be perfect?
No one knows for sure what is absolutely truth and yet the entire world claims to know real gods. I am an atheist, and I cannot verify with absolute certainty any of my points but the overall abundance of clues should give a person confidence that the concept of hell is highly unlikely to exist.
We read all the answers concerning this question from people who claim belief in the Bible and trust in the god they believe inspired it, but their answers differ in regards to the fate of human beings, real people.
What is at stake, in making such bold claims, is the Bible clearly does not understand nor sympathise with such a variety of perception coming from people of different cultures, nationalities, religions, family traditions.
To say atheists will go to hell means a person will be sent to hell for being intellectually honest and for being themselves. To say theists who do not believe in Jesus are going to hell is saying God will send people to hell simply because they followed a different idea about god sincerely among thousands of false gods.
What religion was correct? Once again, people will be punished for having a different perspective and for being themseves. Most people believe according to the majority of the nation in which they were born and the religion of their caretakers. If hell existed, there would be lots of unfairness attached to a nonsensical idea that people are saved by their perception molded by the world.
One of Christisnity's mistaken perspectives is viewing the entire human race as low wretches in need of salvation. They believe everything was supposed to be perfect but nature itself reveals imperfection as a part of life. Christiams claim that sin has come into this world creating the world’s problems.
Who says “sin” exists - the Bible? Why should anyone believe the Bible? Once again, a bunch of Christians will give their different answers according to the differing interpretations and opinions taught by their denominations with different leaders.
Religion has proven itself to fail humankind and who can people trust as having the right answers? If divinity exists, then divinity is responsible for the mass confusion. Yet divinity plans on making humanity pay for not figuring out the correct interpretation of religion multiplied in the thousands. All of this makes no sense.
Be of comfort fellow members of this one giant family called the human race. There is no hell. We do not need to fear such ridiculous nonsensical claims about how people deserve hell. The Bible does not earn any right s of respect as it exposes itself of being immoral. How would god expect people to read the Bible and not question its content. Is this god really this blind, naive, unintelligent, but we are trapped in this existence by a creator who is a dangerous tyrannical lunatic. I don't think this is the case.

@Parker231. This is my perspective (I posted this upthread)

it is my view that we were designed for unity with God. In unity we are partakers of His power and endless knowledge. We didn't need to eat from the Tree of Knowledge if we had realised we had access to all knowledge through God.

It's like any biological organism, the brain leads the body and whilst each cell has its own nucleus and feeds back to the brain it's the brain that should lead. We even are host to many many other microorganisms and they feed back to our brains. Yet when the brain is not in charge of all this we get ill. Cohesion is lost.

I thinks it's the same in this material universe when we lost unity with God. I think the universe is such an intricate system that our loss of unity has affected the whole system, it's all out of whack and from there we get suffering, destructive weather patterns etc it's like illness causes pain as the body attempts to defend itself and heal.

I suppose it could have been a form of meditation. I had severe post natal depression and was experiencing one of the worst emotional pain of my life just emptily staring at the ceiling when it happened

No I don't think I'll make it to Heaven because my heart is broken, sad and angry.

Their wrath was very much feared by believing pagans.

Britons did human sacrifice. Kill a person in a stone circle to see omens in the blood and organs. Burn a bunch of people in a Wicker man. Appease the old God by killing a few children in times of plague or famine. Strangle and club and toss in a peat bog as messengers to the Gods. There is even evidence of ritual cannibalism.

Not everything the Romans wrote about the Britons and the Druidic religion was propaganda, because Britons who ended up educated by Romans wrote it down too and archaeologists have dug up or discovered grisly evidence.

Modern pagans think of the old deities like nice, good fairies at the bottom of the garden or little house brownies that would help your cheese cure or your bread dough rise. They were much more complex.

I think God is way bigger than our narrow conceptions of divinity will allow. ‘In my Father’s house there are many mansions’ and knowledge of God can take many various and quite unexpected forms.

I’m put in mind of the last Narnia book where the young Calormene is accepted into Aslan’s country because in holding values that are more aligned to Aslan than Tash, he has unknowingly been worshipping Aslan. (OK, the book is problematic today for all sorts of reasons, but this bit, coming from a devout Christian writer, has a kind of authentic ring to it). So I can imagine from here how Buddhists, Muslims, Hindus, Wiccans, humanists etc. can along with Christians also be part of God’s Kingdom; the real key here is in knowing God as truly as one can so that we are in unity with Him/Her/Them (needs own special pronoun…)

I could go on forever philosophising about this but the truth is I’m a bit rubbish with observance of faith myself. Lapsed Catholic who chafed against all the Church’s rules and can’t quite get on with the methods employed by some of the more zealous evangelical types. So take this with a pinch of ‘salt of the earth’. 😆

I’m around 20% Christian as I do believe in a lot of Jesus’ teachings. My beliefs are a mix of several religions. I’ve never liked organised religion or the idea that one religion from one teacher is the one true path for everyone. To answer your question though OP, no I will not be getting to heaven after this life.

@BreakfastAtMilliways I have often pondered on the same myself. I do wonder, though, whether, on some level at least, they would acknowledge the divinity in Jesus if they encountered Him. But again that encounter could (potentially) take many forms...

If there is a god (I don't think so) then I would rather not associate with it in the light of what it's done to me and my family.

It’s a difficult one isn’t it? I think if Jesus had been alive and walking the Earth while I’m around He honestly could have convinced me to follow Him in about twelve seconds. Possibly not even because I sensed his divinity but obviously the miracles and the charismatic speaking, with simple good messages, and actually living a good life.

Saving my response to OP for when I’m more awake, but I don’t feel the same about the Father. Apart from Revelations (I think) basically all the Bible says hell is a forever sleep and shows God doing some really awful things. We can’t choose the God we have and if He is real he might be MUCH worse than written in the Bible, so I think it’s illogical to say “a benevolent god couldn’t do this, so I don’t believe”. However, honestly, once you’ve read the Old Testament get back to me on whether you want to spend eternity singing hymns to a being like that or whether you just want oblivion. I’m scared of death but would choose the second one.

BTW thanks @VincitVeritas1 for your reply, as I’ve said above I’ll reply in my turn ASAP.

There is something about the way Jesus speaks. His words are wise and intelligent, and kind of poetic. If it’s not authentic it’s a really good writer.

But I find it hard to believe I would go to hell for not believing/ trusting him/ accepting him as lord and saviour. I’m not perfect. I’ve acted badly in life at times. But I don’t think I’m a bad person that deserves to go to hell.

I even wonder if people who commit seriously evil acts do. It’s possible that at death the lower personality falls away and what’s left is the purity of soul that everyone starts out with.

@FatFatMary do you mind my asking, what’s your particular Christian sect? Is it one where there are a few chosen people who get elevated to Heaven, one of the more hardline ones who have to be perfect believers to go, or (my favourite) a very moderate Anglican/others similar where you just have to be generally good and go to church every once in a while? Sorry if that sounded trite! But it’s an interesting idea that the Lord creates only perfect souls and we sort of construct an evil shell around them like nasty hermit crabs.

@CeciledeVolangesdeNouveau I’m not religious. I’ve only relatively recently been researching Christian scripture.

I would like to believe that every person deep down has a pure soul and that they can become disconnected from it, and that no one must be lost forever over an evil they committed. (I don’t think this premise applies to most people, only evil ones)

I think dying is like waking up from a dream into reality, heaven.

Not heaven for me, but I'm also not sure if maybe he'll has a lukewarm section for me? I'm not a terribly bad person, but can't profess to be particularly good either.

Why do you think “the real key here is in knowing God as truly as one can so that we are in unity with Him/Her/Them (needs own special pronoun…)” - what’s the purpose of that?

From what I can see most organised religion is bad - in some cases very bad. I was reading some articles about Mormons - it’s like a cult! The Catholic Church has a history of sexual abuse and even the local Church of England based church near my friends won’t marry them because they are in a same sex relationship. Churches in the US have been celebrating the overturning of Roe v Wade even though it’s takes away a woman’s rights over her own body.

I did a flying visit to London last week (hence the being awake at all hours with jet lag!) and although we lived there for many years, I noticed the increase in the numbers sleeping on the streets - why haven’t these supposedly caring religious groups not opened the doors to churches like St Paul’s and Westminster Abbey so that the homeless can escape from the freezing cold?

@FatFatMary & @Ohthatsfabulousdarling, I find it easier to reconcile humanity having imperfect souls from centuries and centuries of having a disconnect with God. (To return to my previous analogy it's similar to our nervous system being damaged and our bodies not moving as easily and our muscles wasting and losing strength and vitality). We inherit imperfections and acquire new ones along the way. It's why there are wars, exploitation, cruelty and all the ills of the world. But we can also heal.

Our souls begin to heal as we connect with God. That might be through formal religion or simply through loving others with the type of love Christ preached which leads us to recognise that in God when we encounter Him. It is through that love we can have unity with God. Forgiveness and accepting forgiveness is a big part of that love. When these topics are discussed I see a lot of hurt and anger coming out in the posts which is heartbreaking.

How pathetic you are

It’s not pathetic. On the earlier thread there were some posters very critical of anyone challenging the existence of god and that you can have a perfectly happy and good life without religion. Many of us don’t need that crutch

Sorry, I didn’t know that I quoted your comment. Oh wait, I didn’t?

Regardless of what was posted on a previous thread, this thread has nothing to do with that. It’s actually embarrassing that a grown adult would admit to wasting peoples time due to boredom. Weird

Crom Cruach , from Ireland is a good example of this. His original cult included child sacrifice.

@Parker231
Once again, I have never threatened you - that is the language you chose to use. Nowhere, either on this thread or the previous one, have I said you are going to Hell or that anyone deserves to be there. According to the Bible everyone will spend eternity in one of two destinations - Heaven, or Hell. As C. S. Lewis puts it; “There are only two kinds of people in the end: those who say to God, "Thy will be done," and those to whom God says, in the end, "Thy will be done." All that are in Hell, choose it.”

This is not a points based system like in TV comedy The Good Place. It is dependent on whether or not a person has put their faith, hope and trust in Jesus Christ, in this life. Essentially, rejecting God leads to eternal separation from God. So in the absence of the very source of life, love, light, peace, joy and healing, there is only left death, hate, darkness, turmoil, despair and sickness/pain.

If, in your opinion, I am ‘morally inferior’ then you must also consider God to be morally inferior. Jesus Himself (God in the flesh) spoke about the coming Judgement, when He returns to earth:

“When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit on his glorious throne. All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. He will put the sheep on his right and the goats on his left.
“Then the King will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world. For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.’
“Then the righteous will answer him, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink? When did we see you a stranger and invite you in, or needing clothes and clothe you? When did we see you sick or in prison and go to visit you?’
“The King will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers and sisters of mine, you did for me.’
“Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.’
“They also will answer, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you?’
“He will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.’
“Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.”
(Mathew 25:31-46).

If we believe the Bible to be the Word of God, as I do, there is no denying the existence of such a place; to do so is just wishful thinking.

To clarify, it was the aggression, insults and combative tone we were objecting to, not the unbelief.