Will you make it to Heaven? Cont.

[VincitVeritas1]

Feel free to join me in a discussion about Heaven according to the Holy Bible/ Christianity in general.

My question is why would anyone think that an atheist would go to either heaven or hell when we don’t believe in the concept?

I'm not sure I understand? Why would anyone think it, or why would you as an atheist think that?

some posters think you can’t opt out! The concept is out there to try and scare people into compliance!

Presumably you don't think they can opt in though? It's just a different belief system.

I don’t understand why anyone would opt in. Doesn’t make them a better person or that they will have a life

I don't think anyone is saying they're better than you. You don't seem to understand the concept that people can hold different beliefs?

Totally get that people can have different opinions and beliefs but don’t understand why anyone would accept heaven and hell as a concept.

Right. I don't believe that anyone goes to an eternal hell or anything like that. But people that do, accept it because they think it's reality.

I have loads of really clever and insightful Christian friends I’ve discussed this with, and their reasoning and my own musings have convinced me that the human brain just can’t deal with the fact that one day, it’s not going to perceive anything any more for ever. Just as we can’t comprehend infinity, or even a billion dollars, or whatever. Couple that with a belief system which was at least co-opted to be carrot and stick to a load of peasants whose lives were hell anyway, and you get the hope of heaven and hell.

@CeciledeVolangesdeNouveau so where does that conclusion leave you? Happy, hopeful, the same as before?

Neither, really @heyhohello. But I’d feel disingenuous or dishonest to just start believing in God again because it gives me either of those feelings. It feels like just staying with a man because he gives me lots of money and I like it, or something, and if He exists he’ll know I don’t believe for the right reasons.

@CeciledeVolangesdeNouveau belief is a choice, though. You choose whether to accept or dismiss every single idea that comes to you. I don't think it's wrong to be appreciative of the benefits of faith. Just as I don't think it's necessarily right to embrace things which make things worse for your life. Because I believe much of suffering on this earth stems from a disconnect to God (see my organism analogy earlier).

I agree about choosing what to believe but that choice is informed. By your upbringing, your experiences, your biases. I clung to my faith for nearly twenty years before I lost it and while I’ll never lose my admiration for upright Christians and those who have faith, and won’t close my mind to one day coming back around to the idea of God, at the moment I can’t just decide to start believing in Him and believing the Bible is truth for example, just because I want to. There are moments in life where faith as a belief is a choice to do something good - keeping believing in the potential of someone who is struggling, for example - but I don’t think Christianity is like that.

I understand where you're coming from Cecile. I think of faith as a gift, rather than any virtue on the part of the believer.

I agree about choosing what to believe but that choice is informed. By your upbringing, your experiences, your biases.

@CeciledeVolangesdeNouveau, and that is true regarding whether you choose to believe or not believe. There are biases either way. You acknowledge there are biases and that your individual experiences means you (like every other human) has bias. According to my belief only one who possesses all knowledge is God, from His vantage point there are no biases, only truth. Connecting with Him is what I believe allows me to find my way through all biases.

There are moments in life where faith as a belief is a choice to do something good - keeping believing in the potential of someone who is struggling, for example - but I don’t think Christianity is like that.

Why? It's one of the reasons I got more serious about my faith. In order to keep hope alive regarding people others had written off.

@Mustardseed86

I understand where you're coming from Cecile. I think of faith as a gift, rather than any virtue on the part of the believer.

I agree. Faith is a gift. But it is one we have all been given. We can choose to receive it or not.

Maybe that's true. I can't speak for other people.

@Mustardseed86, it's part of what I believe as a Christian.

"...the faith God has distributed to each of you." (Roman 12:3)

"13 If you then, though you are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father in heaven give the Holy Spirit to those who ask him!” (Luke 11:13)

But, really, whenever anyone trusts in anything without direct experiential evidence it's a kind of faith in something.

"So then he has mercy on whomever he wills, and he hardens whomever he wills” (Romans 9:17–18).

I think you can often find Bible verses that imply or state different things, hence the various schools of thought on theological issues.

@Mustardseed86, indeed. However, those were the verses that immediately came to my mind in this particular context. There is an appropriate time for everything.

Regarding hardening, it's not over until it's over. Should I believe someone has intentionally been permanently hardened by God or should I have hope that they can receive His love? If not now then in the future. It is not up to me to condemn someone.

The verses I quoted, I mean.

No, of course not. I don't believe God gives up on anyone and I definitely agree it's not for us to condemn or judge. But maybe we don't all have the gift of faith, for whatever reason.

But maybe we don't all have the gift of faith, for whatever reason

@Mustardseed86, why do you think this? Faith (as a general quality) is necessary in life. We have to rely on faith (in something) because we cannot have personal experiential evidence of everything. Added to this we don't know the future and have to make decisions based on what we think the outcome will be.

Where we (choose to) place that faith, this will differ. But nevertheless we all use (a type of) faith in day to day life.

Regarding some people being 'hardened', this came to my remembrance:

"5 And hope does not put us to shame, because God’s love has been poured out into our hearts through the Holy Spirit, who has been given to us.
6 You see, at just the right time, when we were still powerless, Christ died for the ungodly." (Romans 5:5-6)

And I don't see any reason here not to hope. And that is indicative of God's love, here. 🙂

i wonder why some people need to have faith in any number of different gods and others of us manage well without.

When I say faith, I mean religious faith specifically. Some people just don't have any interest in it, don't understand and think it's pointless and baffling. Occasionally someone like that might rethink, but in my experience that's rare, it seems to be quite a fixed trait. My way of making sense of that is that God made people the way they are so He must have His reasons. And of course because of the Fall, none of us have the closeness with God (in this life) that we were created for. But I believe Jesus came to redeem the whole world, so I'm full of hope that He has ways of reaching us all in the end.