Active discussions

Meet the Other Phone. Only the apps you allow.

Meet the Other Phone.
Only the apps you allow.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Talk
Philosophy/religion

Join our Philosophy forum to discuss religion and spirituality.

Original poster

I have absolute proof that there is no God.

999 replies

seeker · 18/08/2012 14:51

I've just seen in our local paper that a little girl who lives in our town has died. She has been the focus of much prayer since she was taken ill last year. Her parents were thoroughly good Christian people who trusted God absolutely.

The is no way that a loving, omnipotent, beneficent God who notes even a sparrow falling would not have answered these people's prayer.

So, if I had even a scintilla of doubt, it is now gone. There is no God.

OP posts:
dreamofwhitehorses · 20/08/2012 11:53

Modern Christian thinking is not that god answers prayers like some wizard with a magic wand, but that he is there to comfort those who are suffering. We can't comprehend the idea of the godhead, which is why god became incarnate as jesus, lived a human life suffered, was tortured, mocked, abused and murdered.

BigBoobiedBertha · 20/08/2012 11:58

dreamofwhitehorses - you first sentence was what I have been trying to say but much more succintly.

BigBoobiedBertha · 20/08/2012 12:25

Agnosticism is the only rational argument really.

Science can't say how life began and how the universe works. We have only scratched the surface of what there is to know. Until there is enough knowledge to say this is what happened and this is how the universe works then you can't rule out the existence of God. I don't care if you can rule it out 99.99% which you very obviously can't, there is still an element of doubt so being an atheist to me seems as irrational as having a faith.

In the same way faith eludes me because although people say they have evidence by their experience, until I either experience it for myself or God manifests himself in some way that is unmistakable to anybody with an open enough mind to accept it (there will always be those who won't believe the evidence of their own eyes because they don't want to believe in God) then I don't have faith.

That also means that I don't think prayer will show me God because unlike the OP I don't think prayer works in such a simplistic way. I won't be able to pray for something and miraculously recieve it - that is a child's view of prayer surely. The power of prayer is much more complex than that and I don't even think it needs faith in a higher power for it to work.

CoteDAzur · 20/08/2012 12:25

"We can't comprehend the idea of the godhead, which is why god became incarnate as jesus, lived a human life suffered, was tortured, mocked, abused and murdered."

So what exactly was the purpose of this gruesome exercise of God getting Himself tortured and abused by his creation?

Showing the faults in God's design of human beings?

RedMolly · 20/08/2012 12:25

Modern Christian thinking is not that god answers prayers like some wizard with a magic wand, but that he is there to comfort those who are suffering.

Where does this come from though? The OT god was certainly not afraid of inflicting more than a little suffering. NT god - ask and it shall be given etc (as has been quoted several times already). Previous responses from believers have ranged from god intervenes/doesn't intervene, has a plan/doesn't have a plan, answers prayers/doesn't answer prayers - having any discussion on this basis is like trying to hold onto the sea.

CoteDAzur · 20/08/2012 12:29

BigBoobied - I used to say the same thing until someone pointed out to me that atheist doesn't mean someone who is 100% sure that there is no God. Rather, it means someone who is not convinced by the God hypothesis. Rejection of baseless belief, in other words, rather than belief in its opposite.

CrikeyOHare · 20/08/2012 12:30

Nyx

"I am not used to arguing with strangers! I'm sitting here blushing".

Grin No blushing, please. We're not arguing we're discussing & possibly debating an important subject.

I'm not at all sure Anne Frank is the best example, is she? If God answered her prayer, then she must have been praying to die alone of TB in a concentration camp. And I some how doubt that.

Very few people are truly "at peace or serene". Life tends to get in the way of that. Although there is some evidence I believe that shows that religious people tend to be happier generally than atheists. But, as George Bernard Shaw said, that's no more to the point than that drunk people are happier than sober ones.

JugglingWithFiveRings · 20/08/2012 12:33

I understand your frustration at the variety of answers offered RedMolly, but surely everyone has the right to hold and offer their own unique opinion - to see things slightly differently from anyone else ?

CrikeyOHare · 20/08/2012 12:33

Agnosticism is the only rational argument really

Atheism & agnosticism are not mutually exclusive. They are answers to different questions.

I don't know for sure that God cannot or does not exist, I am therefore an agnostic.

But I do not share the theistic belief that he does, which makes me an atheist.

Agnostics ARE atheists.

CrikeyOHare · 20/08/2012 12:40

which is why god became incarnate as jesus, lived a human life suffered, was tortured, mocked, abused and murdered

Planned & plotted by him. All his own fault. He apparently decided that the best way to "forgive us" for the sins he knew we'd commit (because he has a big plan and knows everything) is to have himself put to death. Which in itself is a bit pointless in that he was straight off to Heaven, so not really dead at all.

Some sacrifice!

If it was me, I'd just say "Look, I forgive you all for doing the terrible things I planned in advance that you'd do" and that would be that.

But, then, I'm not someone who goes in for melodramatic pointless posturing like Yahweh.

Schoolworries · 20/08/2012 12:40

Seeker

What if the little girl had survived?

Would have instead posted this was absoloute proof God does exsist?

CoteDAzur · 20/08/2012 12:40

Exactly what Crikey said.

WavingLeaves · 20/08/2012 12:41

But modern Christian thinking is just that - the thoughts of people , who have adapted their interpretations of the Bible to fit with their current culture and 'correctness'.

There's nothing divine about it. Or rather, there's no reason to believe that there is anything divine about anything that has ever been written by people about their god(s).

CrikeyOHare · 20/08/2012 12:43

comforting those who are suffering

An empty gesture, since he's apparently the one who caused the suffering in the first place.

A bit like me holding the hand of someone I'd just stabbed.

Is God a hypocrite?

WavingLeaves · 20/08/2012 12:46

Yes - if god is a parent, he's a fairly toxic one.

imsotired · 20/08/2012 12:50

headinhands You deserved a baby? The couples that weren't successful didn't deserve one? What about people who murder their own babies? Did god make a bum decision? Or people who have abortions? If they didn't deserve a baby then why did god guide the sperm or whatever he does as I assume if he's guiding surgeons hands he must be guiding other things in the natural world? Or is it just surgeons hands?

My dad implied that my daughter was the work of the devil and that i deserved a damaged or devil child for messing with 'Gods' creations. when i said to my dad about god guiding the surgeons hands he said.... 'how do you know its not the devils hands at work?'

i actually went to him that day becuase i had seen a programme about genetic modifications and i asked my dad 'how do i know that they havent messed with my baby?' He said ' you dont. what you are doing is against god and you will get what you deserve'

I'm not sure that i deserved a child over anyone else, and i absolutely dont agree with him, but thats what he said... 'i'd get what i deserve'. thats his opionion not mine.

You can work out the rest for yourself, but i absolutely have a wonderful dd who i am lucky to have.

CrikeyOHare · 20/08/2012 12:55

Schoolworries

That's really not the point, I'm afraid - and the answer is no (as I'm sure she'll say).

A child dying means they could not be saved by modern medicine. A child surviving means they could. This much we know.

It's theists who "count the hits & ignore the misses" (otherwise known as confirmation bias), not atheists. It's an illogical way to think so most of us don't.

expatinscotland · 20/08/2012 12:58

I'm getting FA comfort from God now my child is dead. And technodad, Crikey and AnnieL are starting to make increasingly more sense.

expatinscotland · 20/08/2012 13:02

Anyone catch that show on BBC4 last week, featuring the last two living survivors of Treblinka? One of them put it perfectly, 'I kept looking for god but he was on holiday. All I saw was beautiful Polish blue sky.'

And with that, he was a non-believer.

CrikeyOHare · 20/08/2012 13:08

Sorry dream, missed your 11.34 comment.

Yes, you can fit God into the gaps in scientific knowledge. Such a common fallacy that Christians indulge in, it has it's own name - The God Of The Gaps.

"Science can't explain how the BB happened, therefore it must have been God".

Erm, no. Doesn't work like that. Believe it all you want (generic you, not personally you), but without evidence you are making no more sense than a nutcase creationist who thinks dinosaurs & man lived together like in The Flintstones.

JugglingWithFiveRings · 20/08/2012 13:09

Crikey - your post at 12.40 (where you tell us what you'd do if you were God and say "but then I don't go in for pointless, melodramatic posturing like Yahweh" did make me laugh Grin

I remember coming to some of those conclusions as a teenager - and perhaps should give them more thought again. Basically however it all worked out logically God is responsible for it (if he's all-knowing etc. etc ) If I can't live a sin free life then that's not my fault ! ( how my teenage mind might put it ) And how does Jesus/ God dying on the cross help exactly ? Why does God need a sacrifice ? Isn't he big and kind enough just to forgive us anyway - like a loving parent would forgive his/her children ?

CrikeyOHare · 20/08/2012 13:10

Hi expat :)

No, I didn't. Is it still on BBCi? Sounds interesting.

Got to go to the dentist now :( Why did God gives us bloody wisdom teeth!!

expatinscotland · 20/08/2012 13:13

It should be Crikey. He didn't belief at all after his experiences and said his mother, who lost her other two daughters (he knew they had been gassed when he found their clothes), walked around like a living dead person for many years. It was only when he and his wife had a child that she began to live again.

JugglingWithFiveRings · 20/08/2012 13:16

I like your Polish blue sky expat ....

... reminds me of Imagine by John Lennon ... "above us only sky"

Peace and love to you from another seeker who doesn't have any answers x

Schoolworries · 20/08/2012 13:17

Crikey

If its "you theists" who only think of things logically then its a tad absurd to start an op saying " look proof God doesnt exsist".

The "logical" people wouldnt even bring God into the equation.

Why not start an op saying "proof science still isnt advanced as we think"

The I question asked that is infact perfectly logical, for if one is to conclude prayers not answered concludes in no God, it is entirely fair and logical that one most also have given the answer God does exist if the prayers had been answered if this situation was the test.

Interesting you assume Im one of those "illogical theists".

Except I never made a statement either eay about my own personal believes.