I have absolute proof that there is no God.

[seeker]

I've just seen in our local paper that a little girl who lives in our town has died. She has been the focus of much prayer since she was taken ill last year. Her parents were thoroughly good Christian people who trusted God absolutely.

The is no way that a loving, omnipotent, beneficent God who notes even a sparrow falling would not have answered these people's prayer.

So, if I had even a scintilla of doubt, it is now gone. There is no God.

I understand your frustration at the variety of answers offered RedMolly, but surely everyone has the right to hold and offer their own unique opinion - to see things slightly differently from anyone else ?

Yes of course. I don't have a problem at all with people taking what makes sense to them and discarding what doesn't. I think it is far more important to be honest with yourself about what does and doesn't make sense rather than to do mental gymnastics trying to make sense out of something that doesn't ring true to you.

The problem i have is that the sands constantly shift at each point raised, which makes this kind of discussion hard to get a handle on. I know all christians don't think the same, but you would think it wouldn't be so hard to pin down some common ground. There isn't even agreement about whether god intervenes or not, which i would have thought was fairly fundamental, given that the bible is full of examples of divine intervention.

School Yes, I did assume that. Accept my apologies.

You make some good points that I'd like to address - but have no time now.

Back later.

So because someone dies there is no God -

"And how does Jesus/ God dying on the cross help exactly ? Why does God need a sacrifice ?"

The whole thing makes no sense. God comes down in human form, makes humans (His creation) kill Himself in this human form, calls this 'sacrifice'. Except that this is no sacrifice for the Jews who killed him, since they didn't much care for him to start with.

So God sacrifices Himself to Himself because he is not happy with his creatures' behaviour? Huh?

"Why did God gives us bloody wisdom teeth!!"

Another proof of evolution. Our jaws are much smaller now than those of our ancestors, but we have the same number of teeth. That means we have too many teeth for our jaws, and so there is hardly any room for the last ones we call wisdom teeth.

Three of mine were pulled out 15 years ago. Oh how I wished then that we were created perfect in God's image rather than evolved blindly

"if one is to conclude prayers not answered concludes in no God, it is entirely fair and logical that one most also have given the answer God does exist if the prayers had been answered if this situation was the test."

No because it could have been chance - i.e. sometimes sick people get better and sometimes they don't. If one of them gets better, that is not proof that a divine power has intervened in her favor.

On the reverse side, your religion's claim is that God answers all prayers and that he is a benevolent and omnipotent God. The death of one child for whom many have prayed is a counterexample, and one counterexample is enough to refute a universal claim. Therefore, you have to conclude that if there is a God, it isn't the Christian one who answers all prayers.

"your religion"

No, Im afraid thats not how fair and logical concluions about absolutes are conducted.

If one is too take sceanrio x as test of an absolute proof of something, then one must have to stand by the conclusion wether that fits the desired outcome or not.

No matter what your faith may or may not be that is the only logical and fair process.

Sadly, this is going to sound very rude, but I can't help that. But some of the arguments (in favour of a god) on here make me think some of the posters need to wake up and smell the coffee and grow up a bit. They come across as senseless drivel. I am sorry, I don't mean to offend, but none of it hangs together and I can't see why others can't see it. Can I be that thick myself that I don't understand it? (possible)

The ONLY good arguments I can understand and respect are:

1. I am having a horrible time of my life and I need to know there Is something out there, to help me through mentally, and

2. the act of prayer comforts me like meditation.

I genuinely respect these two statements, but everything else has been baseless!

Sorry, I had to say it.

Technodad

I myself am of no organised religion but fluid with my spiritual beliefs. On any given day I could tell you the idea of God is rubbish and a false hope on another day I could tell you God is real.

Here is a secret...I will fully admit I have always felt far more content and fufilled on the days when I have faith.

However, doubt regularly seeps in and I have been dealt one awful hand in life after another so naturally this shakes any faith, and is too be honest coming close to destroying any last shred.

I am a hundred perecent prepared to admit I am very jealous of those who manage to keep their faith intact inspite of everything.

for those rare days I have felt God is real with have been some of the best days of my life.

Now slightly regretting writing such a personal post....

Schoolworries it's good to be honest with yourself and others. Makes perfect sense that days of faith feel good. That's part of being human and the reason religion exists and humans seek answers.

As Louis Theroux said in Weird weekends once ...

"Whatever gets you through the cosmic void is alright by me"

• glad to hear you can respect the two reasons you mentioned for faith technodad

I pretty much agree, but perhaps I'd take it a bit further and say I can appreciate people's need and valuing of story (other people's wise words expressing truth and meaning), prayer, and community in their lives.

technodad,I am aware you are waiting for me to get back to you.
I will try.You have asked me to post about your post of 18.43pm,but I thought I had covered that one,so Im not sure with that one,which bits I did not cover.
Your post 18.49pm which I missed last night.I agree that God might do some things anyway for Christians that we had not prayed for,or forgot to pray for,dont know how many.But I do think that there are some things we would not get if we didnt pray.But prayer is not just about ourselves,we also pray for other people.And if they are non Chrisitans,and we pray about soemthing in their lives,if it is Gods will they will get it,which they probably would not have got otherwise.

I could ask at this point,if you want me to pray for anything for you.Not as a test.God does not like or agree with being tested.But if there is something you would like me or other Christians to pray for,I will do it.
Same goes actually,for anybody else on here.

Schoolworries

Thanks for your post. Even though it does not contribute to the argument that god exists, it goes a long way to help understand the human psychological side of belief, which is very important to get an insight in to.

I suspect it supports the earlier statement that "god was made by man in the image of himself" (rather than man being made by god in the image of himself)

Thanks for your honesty .

MMMarmite,I still cannot find the bit in the bible I said I would look up about people who have not heard about God.I will continue to look.Perhaps someone else on here can help me with that.

School

I'm withdrawing my apology, since I didn't actually say "you theists". I thought it - but I don't apologise for private thoughts.

Your logic is deeply flawed - here's why.

Seekers assertion that God does not exist because that little girl died is a RESPONSE to the prior assertion by Christians that an omniscient, omnibenevolent, omnipotent God who listens to and responds to prayers exists. If this was true, that little girl would not have died. Could not have died. Therefore, the hypothesis that "God" (as defined by Christianity) exists fails and is disproved.

Cotes puts it perfectly On the reverse side, your religion's claim is that God answers all prayers and that he is a benevolent and omnipotent God. The death of one child for whom many have prayed is a counterexample, and one counterexample is enough to refute a universal claim. Therefore, you have to conclude that if there is a God, it isn't the Christian one who answers all prayers.

If the little girl had survived, would that prove that God exists? (Your question).

No. Because it's one little girl - and according to the Christian definition of God I've already given, each and every person who is prayed for should survive.

If every person who is prayed for survived and every single person who wasn't died - that would go a long way towards proving that the Christian God exists.

• There are 33,000 different denominations of Christianity, and not all define God in the same way. But since we can't actually have 33,000 threads disproving 33,000 different versions of Yahweh, we need to work with the most common definition.

• The above wouldn't actually "prove" God exists, really (there could be other explanations for the phenomenon) but it would be pretty good evidence.

I can appreciate people's need and valuing of story and community. I also value 'prayer' in a somewhat wider sense than requesting favours from an invisible Father Christmas.

Last month I visited a village church that has turned itself into a coffee shop, meeting room, playgroup, post office and convenience store. It still has services, but the worship space has been greatly reduced. It's chock full of community spirit. This church, imo, is fulfilling its role imaginatively and well. So, however, do various pubs, clubs and cafes up and down the country.

As to story - you don't need a single source for that. I think it's more constructive to learn from multiple sources.

You shouldn't regret writing a personal post. Understanding each other's thought processes is a good thing.

MMMarmite,I think it was also you that asked about whether God is all-loving.
That question slightly threw me.
God is love.
But God is also big on justice.
So like when a dad disciplines his child because the child has done something naughty,so God disciplines Christians.That is part of the way in which Christians improve,to become more like God..I have a very good book called "The bumps are what you climb on".It might be American.And it basically explains how when things are difficult for Chrisitians,that is hopefully when and how we improve.The bible explains is as "when we are weak,then we are strong".

God does sometimes get annoyed with non Christians.There are many examples in the bible.He is slow to anger,but when he gets annoyed,boy does he get annoyed.

So is all of this post showing God to be all-loving.I guess it depends on your own personal point of view.

hello all,

I haven't realy got time to enter into this discussion properly but I just thought I'd throw in a different POV from a faith perspective.

I'm never convinced by argumenst which go 'I prayed, this happened and therefore...', whether it's a believer saying 'I prayed, this good thing happened and therefore God is real' or a non-believer saying 'I (or someone else) prayed, this bad thing happened and therefore God isn't real.' I know loads of believers, and not one of them has found faith thta way. Likewise, I know a few people whohave made bargains with God 'If you make my husband / child / parent better, I will believe, be a Christian etc' and for those whose loved ones did recover, did they carry out what they promised? No, of course not. Why? Because, possibly, faith doesn't work out like that. Miracles may, or may not happen from time to time, but I don't think, on the whole, that there is a strong link between miracles and belief in God. There's a research project for some sociologist of religion to do, but my anecdotal experience is that whether or not people believe has comparitively little do with 'answered prayer.'

So, what's going on then, if that's the case? One thing that strikes me is this: if I had lived 100 years ago, I'd be dead by now (lifelong illness - if that hadn't got me, I'd have died in childbirth, and my daughter with me.) I've heard some horrific birth stories - the number of people I know who are alive today becaues of modern medicine is astonishing, and truly wonderful. So, we in our generation are the beneficiaries of some truly life-changing scientific breakthroughs. Which is wonderful, and obviously, as someone who oews my continued existence to modern medicine, it'd be mad of me to say anything else.

But...maybe the shadow side of this bright picture is that we expect to live long, healthful, happy lives. We expect that we should always be well. And we extrapolate from that basic assumption that if there is a God, he'd want the same thing too. Previous generations, who didn't have the benefits we have, expected a lot less - mediaevals saw life as a 'vale of tears' to prepare us for heaven. Child mortality was, obviously, much much higher, but wasn't the deal-breaker wrt faith in God. Whatever conclusions we draw from this observation, it seems to me that we, the generation in the history of the world to have the best healthcare (at least in the UK - sadly not in two-thords of the world), also have the highest expectations, and our belief in science / medicine and whatever faith we may have in God blend to create the expectation that if God exists, God = us living long, healthy lives. In certain Christian churches there is a (terrible) phenomeon called the 'Prosperity Gospel' - i.e. it clams that if we believe, God makes us prosperous and rich. It is so insidious and nasty, but I wonder if this more widespread attitude towards healing is a more subtle aspect of it?

The New Testament does make some bold claims wrt prayer - but if you read the history of the ealy church, they had a terrible time. Many were killed for their faith, esp. under Nero. There are hints of this in the Bible; 'in this world, you will have many troubles. But take heart - I have overcome the world.' It's really easy to overlook the 'troubles' but and just quote the bits about God hearing our prayers.

Finally (!), I find the whole argument very dissatisfying because even if someone were miraculously healed of a specific illness, they'd still die eventually - that's the way life is, that's the way we are as people. So whatever 'healing' might be, it can't be the final answer. Because we are more than just bodies, we are much more. We can be 100% healthy in body but still very, very much in need of healing in a deeper way. My own sense, after many 'troubles' in my own life, is that if I believe that God created this world (which I do), then I believe that God created it both fragile and robust, both weak and strong, and that it is up to us as humans as to do our best with what we are and what we have, and to find our humanity in our fragility and weakness as much as in our strength. THis, for me, hooks up with our responsibiliuty for the environment which is both fragile and robust. This, for me, is where real responsible Christian living resides. Miracles may or may not come along, but....they're no substitute for embacing life and fiding God in all things, in weakness and strength. (Sorry if I've offended anyone with this - I do know how utterly, unspeakably awful it is to lose a child. I've been there.)

Amillionyears

The post I haven't had a useful answer to was the one where I listed all the different answers Christians have given to the question about prayer.

In summary: Why is it that Christians will give loads of different answers, but atheists are consistent, which of you is actually right, or are they all wrong?!

If praying for me makes you feel better than fill your boots, but since it achieves nothing then please don't waste your energy on me for no kickback. I am even happy for all religious mumsnetters to pray that I will die a horrid death (I am just about to go bodyboarding and there is a pretty strong rip current, it might just line up with his "plan").

Yes, I am sad for messaging whilst on the beach!

garlic,you said somewhere about spirit,but I think mentioned superstitious.
To me those two things are completely different.
I have a spirit,and I hope the Holy Spirit too,but I would not say I am superstitious.To me superstitious is based around fears.Dont know much about superstitions to be honest.
Any fears I have,I pray about,and basically offload them to God.He can deal with them as far as I am concerned.Thats part of his job!

too many posts to read all through but just wanted to say that the OP assumes God is a puppet master than than implicit in and through everything. God doesn't sit on the sidelines he is within us all. well that's what i think anyway.

Annie,post 22.46pm
I am sorry for what you experienced.
I dont know which church you went to.Of the ones I have been in,the only thing I have seen remotely like that,is someone speaking in tongues.I presume she was genuine.
Can I ask if the people that had or made prophecies,did the prophecies come tru.Because that is how you tell with prophecies.If it comes true,then the prophet is trueand the prophecy was from God.if the prophecy does not come true,then the person making the prophecy is lying,and the prophecy did not come from God.
I do hope[and pray if you will let me].that you refind your faith in God.

So like when a dad disciplines his child because the child has done something naughty,so God disciplines Christians.

What Dad threatens his children with being burnt in a bonfire in the basement FOREVER? Not one that social services would be happy leaving kids with.

God's punishments, as presented in the Bible, tend to involve vicious slaughter, rape and abuse. Makes my confiscation of my son's XBox look very tame. Perhaps I should be more like God and be a monster?