I have absolute proof that there is no God.

[seeker]

I've just seen in our local paper that a little girl who lives in our town has died. She has been the focus of much prayer since she was taken ill last year. Her parents were thoroughly good Christian people who trusted God absolutely.

The is no way that a loving, omnipotent, beneficent God who notes even a sparrow falling would not have answered these people's prayer.

So, if I had even a scintilla of doubt, it is now gone. There is no God.

It's not what I believe - but some people must see it that way.

Congratulations for working it out OP

Maybe there are two possible outcomes based on your hypothesis, OP.

1. There is no God.

or

1. Our idea of what God is needs to change.

Oh gosh, this is appalling

My own (once very strong) faith was shaken to the core by a family friend dying despite having been prayed for fervently.

Of course it's not proof one way or the other - faith has nothing to do with proof; that's sort of the point - but of course, I see your reasoning completely.

"But maybe if God stepped in everytime then no one would ever die? Life would be taken for granted because there would be no death?

I do struggle with this question, I think everyone does"

I don't struggle with it. I think only people who try to reconcile what happens all around them with the concept of a loving, omnipotent God struggle though.

If you accept that either all the bad things that happen are simply your imagination, or that there is no God, you will find it much less of a struggle to make sense of.

I believe in a loving, omnipotent God. I think you might describe me and my DH as "thoroughly good Christian people who trusted God absolutely."

I believe that God knew every day that my DD would be alive and knew and loved her from before the creation of the world.

She was the focus of much prayer by many people of all (and no) Christian persuasions.

She still died.

I don't know why this happened, but I know that God does, as hard as it seems now. I know that he has a purpose in all things and that he did answer our prayers by giving us longer than expected with DD, by the care and compassion and practical help of so many people, by the opportunities to speak about our decisions to others.

I don't understand it all, but it doesn't mean that God is not there.

"my reasoning is, maybe God saved another child, half way across the world, who has had no one to pray for them?"

Are you saying that prayer is ineffectual, or worse, that it produces the completely opposite effect to what the faithful desire?

Bartlet, what a lovely (and courageous) post. i am so sorry about your daughter.

"You seem to spend you whole time on here Seeker trying to make others feel bad about their beliefs. Yet if Christians spread their beliefs we are 'shoving it down your throat'

Is it one rule for you and one rule for another?"

No. I'm just struggling to find a thread where I am allowed to talk about this subject without being called spiteful, a Christian basher or a c**t. You seem to be saying that even if I start my own thread I'm not allowed to talk about it!

Core D'Azur - I'm saying that if prayer works, then it is intrinsically unfair, for all the people who are not prayed for.

Which is why I don't think that prayer works in that way. I think God works in another way.

Expat Again, so sorry for your loss. We have all hoped for your DD's recovery.

In addition to the tragedy of her loss, these are what happened around me in the last six weeks:

Lost a friend and former colleague to brain cancer. Great guy, very smart and witty, in his late 40s. I knew him as a successful lawyer. He was like a baby towards the end and remembered only a handful of people

A day after his death, a good friend had a motorcycle accident, stayed in a coma for a week, now only sporadically conscious, and the left side of her body is "problematic". She has brain trauma. We are told that hoping to have her back as she was before is too optimistic, and that we should be hoping that one day she will sit by herself and eat by herself She recently flew to a specialist clinic in the US.

A good friend's husband committed suicide while she was in America with the kids. I am now in the airport returning from his funeral

Cote D'azur I'm sorry to hear all of this sadness.

The Catholic Church has an expression to explain all of this 'God works in mysterious ways' but I think it is good that people are questioning this now, and looking for reasons and answers, rather then blindly believing.

Seeker I don't think you are Christian bashing, I think you have started a very thought provoking thread.

I'm not even sure that prayer works, but I still pray. Just in case.

What I struggle with is the amount of different faiths often at conflict with one another.

And the way God's laws, words whatever are interpreted by men. Why is it in one religion this offends God yet in another it does not?

I "get" evolution, I can see it around me but I just cannot get my head around God. I believe religion is a means of controlling people.

The innocent children dying is just yet another thing I don't get :S

God I'd supposed to be all powerful all knowing and all beneficent.

He has promised that he will answer prayers.

But he never, ever ever does. He allows people to pray to him with confidence and fervour- and ignores them.

If he existed and did this, he would be evil. But he can't be evil because by definition he is benevolent. So the only explanation is that he does not exist.

That's not proof at all, seeker.

I believe in an afterlife. I believe in spirits. I believe we live on and meet each other again. I believe that each life we lead and I believe we live several, is a lesson and for the most part, that as we progress, that each life we lead, the lessons become harder.

And death is not as unfair as it might look to us, as the soul lives on.
And in all of this, I say "I believe" because no-one can know for sure.
For some reason though, a lot of atheists don't say "I believe" and state their opinions as fact which is really very patronising. I have more respect for those who have the humility to use the "believe" word.

And why did you suppose anything about a God you say you don't believe in?

It's hardly 'absolute proof there is no god' though is it?

All it proves is that if there is a god he doesn't always work in the way you think he ought to. I've heard many explanations of why god might allow this sort of thing, which aren't really possible to categorically refute. While for many it's definitely easier to believe there is no god, this simply isn't the absolute evidence you think it is.

It isn't evidence either way, for or against any god or goddesses. No one has proof only faith, which is why there is such contention around the discussion of gods in general. If there were proof no one would be a martyr for God, or been killed because of their faith or lack thereof.

But its ok for people like the OP to question and assert a position. No one has to agree with it, it gives a place for reflection and thought and for some, perhaps some clarity for their own lives.

After its all said and done, we, the living, won't have any proof of God, only our beliefs.

The death of a child who did not live to grow up and do things most adults get to do, such as participate in jobs, have children, relationships, etc. has a special and acute sadness and, I believe, is very different to other losses.

As to whether it's proof that God doesn't exist, well, I can't say one way or another.

The OP doesn't have absolute proof that god doesn't exist, however it is another piece of data that goes along with the masses of other data which makes the existence of a god so extremely unlikely that we can be unbelievably sure that no god exists.

The reason atheists don't use the word "belief" is because it isn't a belief system (it doesn't matter how many times a theist says it is, it just isn't). It is based upon a scientific approach to a simple question - "is there evidence to prove the existence of a god?" and the pure and simple answer to that question is a resounding "No", the amount of evidence against the existence of a god is huge, and the amount of evidence supporting existence of god is pretty much non-existent! This is not an attempt to be smug, or patronising, it is just how it is, and I make no apology for that (why would I, it is not my doing?).

Since the claim of the existence of god is not backed up with evidence, it is not the job of people who don't believe to prove that god doesn't exist (since this is impossible), but it is the responsibility of the theists to prove, with evidence, that god does exist. If I were to claim that there was an invisible unicorn in my house it would be for me to prove that to everyone, the onus would not be upon others to prove that he doesn't exist. If people told me that there was no evidence for my unicorn, I would be unreasonable to claim that they are being hurtful, because they are correct. If they insulted me, then I would have the right to claim they were being hurtful, but that would be against the MN rules, so people wouldn't do that.

In the words of the great Tim Mincin from his song "The Good Book" (look the song up on YouTube, it is very good).

"If you just close your eyes and block your ears
To the accumulated knowledge of the last two thousand years
Then morally, guess what? You're off the hook
And thank Christ you only have to read one book"

You might as well say that you have absolute proof that there are no aliens because you sent a radio signal out into space and no-one answered.
It could be that the aliens didn't get your message
It could be that they got it but have a policy of leaving Earth alone.
It could be that they got your message but didn't understand it.
It could be that they won't get it for a few thousand years and in any case are no more advanced than us so couldn't help.
It doesn't meant they're not there.
Because we've never seen any doesn't mean that there isn't intelligent life on some distant planet where conditions for life to form were ideal.

seeker is seeking.That is kind of the point isnt it.

As I understand it,prayers are requests,that can be allowed or denied.
Still sad though

"absolute proof that there are no aliens because you sent a radio signal out into space and no-one answered"

Which would possibly have been the case if the aliens in question previously assured us that they always listen to and answer our radio signals. In your example, if we don't receive an answer we would wonder if something happened to them - i.e. if they don't exist anymore.

"prayers are requests,that can be allowed or denied"

And for which conceivable reason would prayers for the life of a precious innocent child be denied?

I don't feel there is any onus on me to prove anything. I don't care if atheists believe there is no God, why should I? However I do think you can't just say unequivocally that "There is no God"
And what is a belief "system"? You either believe something or you don't. Where is the "system"? How did that phrase ever even come into existence?