I have absolute proof that there is no God.

[seeker]

I've just seen in our local paper that a little girl who lives in our town has died. She has been the focus of much prayer since she was taken ill last year. Her parents were thoroughly good Christian people who trusted God absolutely.

The is no way that a loving, omnipotent, beneficent God who notes even a sparrow falling would not have answered these people's prayer.

So, if I had even a scintilla of doubt, it is now gone. There is no God.

< waves to Wally >

I thought your post was very inspiring Okapi. I'm so sorry for the things that happened to you in your childhood. You are a strong person that you can still say "There is amazing beauty and good in the world"

I do agree with you though, and everyone else who's said similar - the universe is an amazing place and there is much to enjoy during our brief time here.

However for some people that might include a desire to be thankful - I think faith can be an "As if" sort of experience.

We give thanks to God for all our many blessings and this gives us hope and a sense of perspective, especially in life's more troubled times - As if God were our loving Father in heaven. Even Jesus when asked how we should pray replied that we should begin "Our Father who art in heaven" - now clearly that is an analogy at least in some ways as God cannot literally be our Father as we have one on Earth already. I find it interesting that so often Jesus used parables and stories to answer those who asked him questions. Truth in story !

The initial spark has nothing to do with evolution - that's abiogenesis, and science doesn't fully understand that yet.

That abiogenesis happened is without question. Was it God clicking his fingers? Maybe. Was it the merging of two primordial atoms zapped by lightning? Maybe. Was it bacteria from a meteorite. Again, maybe.

We await the evidence. It's completely wrong to assume an answer (Was God what done it) until the evidence is in.

And "life" has been created in lab conditions.

dream

I would really like you to answer the question I asked you - who designed the designer?

Your contention is that complexity needs a designer. God must be phenomenally complex - far more complex than any design of his, so who designed him?

If you're saying, "Oh but God didn't need one, he's different" then your initial premise is flawed. But, actually, not everything complex therefore needs a designer, right. And if not everything does, why does the universe?

Great questions Crikey !

I wonder if the thinking of theists on the creation of the Universe is that the Universe is a "thing" and therefore needs creating by a "person" type God.

People don't need to be designed they are just born ! IYSWIM But all "things" need to be designed or created by "someone" ( possibly you may not SWIM ? I think I know what I mean !! )

Hi Technodad What is latest scientific theory on what caused the Big Bang, and how the universe started. I thought we were stil in the dark about that. Let's face it, theoretical physics is actually only understood by such a tiny minority it almost becomes a belief system of itself for the rest of us.
The nature of god is that he exists always before the universe starts after the universe ends outside time, because time is only a product of the creation of the universe. I'm interseted in your answer to the question what existed before the universe

Juggling Theists tend to rely on an Argument From Ignorance fallacy. That sounds really rude, I know, but that's what it's called! It's "I can't personally understand how something as complex as an eye evolved, so it must have been God".

Nothing natural "needs" a designer. Our understanding of evolution & BB theory demolished that idea a long time ago, but still it persists.

dream There's no "theory" as to what caused the BB to happen - if, indeed, anything did. No theory because there's no evidence. Science is quite comfortable saying "We don't know yet" something that religion struggles with.

I did say earlier that there are good, evidential reasons for believing that the universe may have emerged from "nothing". I also thought I explained that talking about "before" in relation to the universe is pointless, since time didn't exist until the first seconds after the BB ands "before" is an application of time.

For some reason you want someone else, a man, to answer the questions that I already have. Because only men really understand these things, right?

I personally don't know what the current theory is (there are a couple of front runners including the theory that expansion and collapse of the universe is repeated).

The point is, I don't need to know because no scientist is saying "this is how it happened - fact", they merely say "our current best theory suggests that this may have happened".

I don't need to understand it personally, but I can be happy that the scientific process does not permit blatant made up nonsense to prevail. There are enough partial physicists in the world who do understand the theories surround the origins of the universe, who can continually challenge and test one another's theories to make sure people done lie. Whereas religious people just accept what is written in a book.

As I understood it, faith is the basis of prayers being 'answered'. I haven't got a bible in front of me just now, but the disciples were granted those 'powers' through faith, they had to believe in God and the holy spirit.

Faith can move mountains, if we believe absolutely that God will answer our prayer and move the mountain (or whatever) then he will. But who has that sort of faith? Jesus, obviously, but who else? The disciples could do miracles like healing the sick, driving out demons, not being affected by snake venom etc because of their faith. I guess they had absolute faith as they had spent quite some time with Jesus, etc, and 'knew' he was the son of God.

I often pray for God to strengthen my faith. I pray all the time for various things. Some trivial, some not so trivial. I do occasionally feel that my prayers are answered. I don't think it's a case of asking God to do something for you, as you would ask your friend or your mother or something. Ask and it shall be given, seek and you will find, knock and the door shall be opened - I read that to relate to looking for God's presence in your heart.

As has been said upthread, faith is believing when there is NO proof. If there was proof, faith wouldn't be required. I believe because I really, really want to. I don't understand at all why God allows terrible things to happen. How can I? But I believe God understands and that he has compassion, but that there will be a reason. Not necessarily a reason that makes sense to me.

Juggling ?
Have you read this thead in its entirety?

Just because there is a gap in the knowledge about something at the moment doesn't mean that it has to be filled with God. Scientists just work and wait until they find more evidence. They are not scared of not knowing things.

Okapi, I just wanted to say how sorry I am that you went through such awful times. Two abusers have been brought to justice: although that can't erase the betrayals from your own past, it must be comforting. (my words are coming out in a mess, sorry) Harry, you too.

Well god is different that is part of the nature of god! I think we need to move away from the idea of god as man with bushy beard making bugs out of magic plasticene. Part of the problem is most of us our religious education has been rubbish and is still stuck at primary level.
God is what is at the very start and very end, god is what exists before anything else exists, god is what is left after everything else is gone, nothing is before god because the nature of god is that god always exists. Obviously you don't believe that if you don't believe in god but if god isn't all these things hes not god. We anthropomorphisise god because its comforting to us and because it's impossible for us to understand his nature

Ah, that's a new one! God would move mountains for us- but we just don't have enough faith!

I agree with this post seeker, we all pray but nothing ever comes from it.
If there was a god, he would not see these children suffer.
I used to believe in god to a certain extent but when my teenage brother died of cancer, seeing the pain he went through and the courage he had, for him to be snatched away like that i stopped believing completely. Our prayers were never answered and when you see a child suffer like that its very hard to believe in anything at all
We used to say god took all the great ones to be his angels in heaven and i do like to think that as it explains things somewhat but why take children?

Nyx

So God makes a promise that no one can take him up on, because no one has enough faith? Seriously?

People have died for their religions, have walked away from their families, given up their whole lives for their God....I think it's safe to say they had faith. Could they have moved a mountain, sprouted wings or brought decomposing dead bodies back to life?

Nope.

You're also talking a lot about what the "disciples" did. What's your evidence for that? A book? Words on a page. If this is good evidence, do you also believe that Mohammed was taken up into Heaven on a winged horse?

Yes, faith is believing without proof - something no rational human being ever does except when it comes to religion. Know why we don't do it? Because it's illogical, and believing something without evidence will get you into trouble very quickly.

Faith is continually referred to in our society as a "virtue", you're a good person if you have "faith". You may be a good person, but that has nothing to do with your faith. Faith is an excuse invented to allow people to believe in something that's neither rational nor demonstrable without being laughed at.

Nyx - that reasoning just sounds like the most awful kind of emotional manipulation. God would answer your prayers, but only if you love him ENOUGH (like one of those super-disciples, which of course you won't ever be). It therefore follows that any prayer-related 'failings' are your fault, not his. Would you enter any other kind of relationship on that basis?

God is what is at the very start and very end, god is what exists before anything else exists, god is what is left after everything else is gone, nothing is before god because the nature of god is that god always exists. Obviously you don't believe that if you don't believe in god but if god isn't all these things hes not god. We anthropomorphisise god because its comforting to us and because it's impossible for us to understand his nature

Honestly, you don't sound like someone who doesn't believe in God.

But I WILL believe when you present some evidence for all that you've just said. You're throwing out these assertions without backing them up at all. This is absolutely no different from me claiming that Fairy Tinkerbell created the universe & giving her whatever properties I feel like so that I don't have to answer uncomfortable questions.

"Who created Tinkerbell"
"Oh, oh....no one did. 'Cos you see Tinkerbell is super special and exists before time. Even though that makes no sense because without time there is no before - but, oh, Tinkerbell is mysterious & too clever for us dunderheads to understand".

That's what you're doing, dream.

The proof is in the Dinasaurs that were before all human existence!
In the fossils etc, for god to be real the dinasaurs wouldn't exist & there is proof of them

I haven't read the whole thread. This is something I've struggled with myself, as have prayed for many things that didn't work out. I see praying now more as talking through your problems, rather than expecting them to be fixed. What I hope to gain is consolation. I don't think God is as actively involved in human life, that he picks people to live or die. If he intervened in my life, where would it stop? We die because something goes wrong with our bodies, or because we are not stronger than the car that hits us, or because someone chose to treat us badly. I don't think there is a plan. The most I hope really is that God grieves with me, and that if there is a chance to meet again, that this life will seem tiny in comparison.

I am not used to arguing with strangers! I'm sitting here blushing.

Yes, my evidence is basically 'a book. Words on a page.'

I don't have enough faith to move mountains or sprout wings. I do (sometimes) have faith enough for 'smaller' things. I believe in God, and Jesus. I believe that he can do anything. I will continue to pray, and to pray for my faith to be strengthened.

People have died for their religions, given up their lives for God, etc, and no, nobody has moved a mountain. But I read about Anne Frank, and Corrie Ten Boom, and believe that some of their prayers have been answered. In my experience, people with strong faith are at peace and serene. I wish I was.

Prayer related failings - no, not exactly the fault of the person who is praying. God knows that we don't have that sort of faith. Perhaps if it was God's will that the thing prayed for was to be granted, through the person who prays, then he might grant them that faith, that belief, to be able to pray without doubt. I don't know - I'm not knowledgeable, I haven't even been to church for a long time. I do believe that all things happen through God's will. I don't know how to reconcile that with awful things happening though.

In the beginning was the Word - bible.

a universe from "nothing" is a possible thing. It's all to do with the definition & property of "nothing" - CrikeyOHare.

It is no less likely that everything originated from 'nothing' than that it originated from a 'word'.

Perhaps the first teller of the story knew, or intuited, that everything began with some kind of reverberation which can occur in an absolute void. It seems unlikely, but then it also seems unlikely that this universe is part of a self-replicating string or bubble of universes. Fact is, we don't know.

The biggest similarity between religion and science is that both have enough humility to say "Humans are not currently capable of comprehending this." A fundamental difference is that science answers "Interesting question! We'll see what we can to do approach an explanation", where religion goes "Don't ask questions, stupid!" Religion's like the controlling parent saying "Because I say so", while science reflects the involved parent who encourages curiosity.

Okapi - You queried whether I'd read the thread in it's entirity ? Well, no, but I've read quite a lot of it. Was there something in particular where I've been insensitive - perhaps talking about being thankful for all our blessings ?

I know I've been lucky and many people here have had a harder life journey than I have. But I was just saying that for me remembering to be thankful for the good things gives me a better perspective and keeps me going. Several posters, including yourself, have said that there is much good to be found in the world - that it can often be an amazing place to find oneself - even if for one brief lifetime.

Anyway, I'm sorry if I said anything that upset you or was insensitive in view of other posters experiences or posts. Perhaps you could let me know if I did ?
It isn't always possible for everyone to read everything on a thread before posting otherwise we'd literally all be here all day which I nearly am anyway Love to all

Crikey, I would love to have faith in God, but I don't. But I don't discount the idea either. I grew up in a family of intellectual Christians and I mainly started contributing to the thread due to the complete bollocks being spouted by the theists on here. The Christian God (if he exists) does not give babies to people because they deserve them, for example and modern christianity hasn't had a firey hell for a long time.
I understand the frustration with the answer about the nature of God. I agree you don't need the idea of God to explain life and Creation, what I'm trying to say is that you can fit a belief in God if you wanted to, into a space in modern science without being a rabid creationist.
I'm sorry I missed your post about the BB I simply addressed my comments to technodad as his was the comment I was replying to on a fast moving thread. Nothing to do with his gender I'm afraid.

Iggi, your post encapsulates the value that I see in prayer. Reflection is good for us and, as we have imaginations, the ability to envisage a listener can be helpful. I don't pray as such, but I do a fair amount of similar things including using my Peruvian worry dolls when I can't sleep!

Dream - I know of some advanced physicists who believe in god. Their belief, being more like the flexible idea you outlined at 11:34, isn't incompatible with science because it's basically another way of saying "No acceptable theory is available at this time."

When you get down to god micro-managing people's lives, though, with parking spaces and IVF, you end up facing the tragedies that occur every second of every day. If god's responsible for the good stuff, it must also be responsible for the bad. To claim some deserve the good - while others suffer because they must - is obnoxiously self-centred, imo, and dangerous.