I have absolute proof that there is no God.

[seeker]

I've just seen in our local paper that a little girl who lives in our town has died. She has been the focus of much prayer since she was taken ill last year. Her parents were thoroughly good Christian people who trusted God absolutely.

The is no way that a loving, omnipotent, beneficent God who notes even a sparrow falling would not have answered these people's prayer.

So, if I had even a scintilla of doubt, it is now gone. There is no God.

bellabreeze I hope you didn't mean that for Harry!

Harry that is absolutely awful, wish there was something more useful I can say to you.

(delurking for a moment here, been reading the thread with interest)

Been reading the thread as I find the discussion

'God has a plan for everyone'

I think that's bollocks, because if that's true, then he's pretty fucked up, IME.

Imsotired. You deserved a baby? The couples that weren't successful didn't deserve one? What about people who murder their own babies? Did god make a bum decision? Or people who have abortions? If they didn't deserve a baby then why did god guide the sperm or whatever he does as I assume if he's guiding surgeons hands he must be guiding other things in the natural world? Or is it just surgeons hands?

Carrot - That analogy works fine if you believe in a totally hands off god. In which case what text are you getting your info from? The Christian god does not fit that analogy as Jesus promised his followers that they would heal people and be impervious to toxins and that whatever they asked for he would provide.

'The Christian god does not fit that analogy as Jesus promised his followers that they would heal people and be impervious to toxins and that whatever they asked for he would provide. '

Well, I'm definitely hard evidence that that is completely untrue.

"I then read online that people who have prayers said for them, have double the sucess rate than those who dont have prayers said for them, even if the people trying to get pregnant didnt belive in God. These are actual facts."

No they aren't actual facts. They really, really aren't.

I agree, seeker.

Hi Seeker and others. I suppose the first point is the existence of God. I'm surprised when someone can look at the jewel of creation, the complexity of the tiniest organism, the amazingness of the human brain, and decide it is obviously all just a random accident. Obviously it could be, but as they say, when you find the watch you look for the watchmaker.

So if God could exist is he a loving God? Well the Christian God is. He becomes Human, suffers and dies to conquer death. But nowhere does God promise to stop people dying, simply that death is not the end.

So why does God let bad things happen? Because the Universe has laws, that's how it works and if the laws didn't exist the universe would'nt exist. If you fall over gravity means you hit the ground. God can't turn off gravity for you so you don't suffer.

So what can God do? He listens, cares, understands, He became Human and suffered for us so he could understand. He also tells us it's okay, we don't have to fear death, trust Him everything will be okay.

So do I believe in God, I'd love to, but I'm a born Fence-sitter, Fortean, agnostic! But I do find Atheism harder to understand than belief.

"Whatever you ask in my name, this I will do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son". John 14 v 13

"They will pick up snakes with their hands; and when they drink deadly poison, it will not hurt them at all; they will place their hands on sick people, and they will get well." Mark 16 v 18

These are not the only verses making such claims and can provide a comprehensive list if you require.

Sorry expat. Misread your post. Need more coffee!

"the jewel of creation" is not the result of a random accident- it's the result understandable scientific processes.

And if God can't do anything which goes against natural law, why did he say he could and would? In the gospel of Mark Jesus says: 'these signs will follow those who believe: In My name they will cast out demons; they will speak with new tongues; they will take up serpents; and if they drink anything deadly, it will by no means hurt them; they will lay hands on the sick, and they will recover.? (Mark 16:15-18)

Dreamofwhitehorses

If it is so unlikely that the universe just happened and there has to be a god to make it, then what made god?

Is there a "God+"? Please give an answer to this question, it is really important to your argument.

Amillionyears

If you get the chance to look at my post from yesterday at 18:43 I would be really interested in you view on why there are many different answers to a question from Christians, but that all atheists give a consistent answer. To an outsider it make it look like you are making stuff up and so it is important to your argument that you dispel this allegation.

Everyone have you listened to the BBC Radio 4 show "The Infinite Monkey Cage"? It is very funny and educational, and a great way to understand many of the subjects address in Bill Bryson's book whilst having a cracking laugh! You can download them all for free - I suggest that amillionyears starts with the one about probability (please give it a try, it is very accessible).

The fundamental nature of God is that he always existed. There's not a 'before' god. There is a 'before' time, as time only exists because the universe exists. An atheist needs to argue that there was nothing and then all of a sudden the universe pops into existence, a theist doesn't have that problem.

The fundamental nature of God is that he always existed. There's not a 'before' god. There is a 'before' time, as time only exists because the universe exists. An atheist needs to argue that there was nothing and then all of a sudden the universe pops into existence, a theist doesn't have that problem.

Cookie you will be ok, and you will be stronger as your foundations and belief in yourself will be stronger.
I've been where you are. I became a Christian and believed that the power of prayer helped me at a dark time of my life. Having been abused as a child I decided to report what happened many years later. The minister was one of the few people who understood my need to do this, whereas members of my family thought I should leave the past alone. It all went to court and I believed that the power of prayer meant justice was done as the abuser was found guilty and on the sex offenders register. However a while later it all came out that the minister who helped me is an abuser himself. He is now in prison for raping children. This was going on at the same time that he was helping me. Church members and prayer groups all got together to pray for him. It was at the point when I had to make a special request to pray for the victims that it hit me that I couldn't be part of it anymore.
Keep talking and searching and you will find your own way. I know what you mean about the emptiness, and I still feel it sometimes but it gets filled by other things, ideas, experience, wisdom, knowledge and open sharing and connection and questioning with others. There is amazing beauty and good in the world.

@dreamofwhitehorses Who said life is a "random accident", exactly? Nothing random about evolution. The initial mutations may be random, but the mechanism of natural selection isn't.

"Find the watch, look for a watchmaker" I would in the case of a watch. Or a painting. Or any other product of our intelligent design. But life & the universe are entirely different kettles of fishes - they are the products of natural processes and don't need a mind to bring them into existence. You are assuming that because we create complex things, that a designer must be required for all other complex things, and that's flawed logic to say the very least.

And, are you willing to carry this thought through to it's proper conclusion? Any universe designer would have to be significantly more complex than his or her design - and if complexity MUST have a designer, who designed God?

And trying to equate the laws of physics with some "law" that means young babies have to starve to death all over Africa - well, words fail me. And that's don't happen often . God made himself human to know what suffering felt like? Big of him. But given that he planned, plotted & invented suffering (spent time pouring over his work bench designing Ebola virus & HIV) you'd think he'd already know.

Agnostic? Really? Agnostics don't actually believe in God.

I don't know if this business about God being good seems slightly off topic but for me it's the crux of the matter... Think I'll start my own thread on the subject... Bye...

Hi technodad - your question made me smile as my DS asked me that one when he was about 5 - he's a smart kid

Hi Crikey. I don't actually believe in God. I don't not believe in God. I'd call myself a Fortean
' I percieve of nothing in science, religion or philosophy that is more than the proper thing to wear, for a while' Charles Fort.
As for blaming god for suffering in Africa - slightly passing the buck, we can lay that firmly at the door of corruption, greed, exploitation and don't care attitude of the earths human population.

The fundamental nature of God is that he always existed. There's not a 'before' god. There is a 'before' time, as time only exists because the universe exists. An atheist needs to argue that there was nothing and then all of a sudden the universe pops into existence, a theist doesn't have that problem.

How is there a "before" time if time only exists because the universe does? "Before" is an application of time, without it, it means nothing.

An atheist (or scientist) needs to argue no such thing. The beginnings of the universe are vastly more complex than that it "popped" into existence - which, incidentally, is exactly what theists believe (God "breathed" it into existence). Physics is showing that, actually, a universe from "nothing" is a possible thing. It's all to do with the definition & property of "nothing", not something that we've been able to experience.

The big problem theists have is a complete & total lack of evidence. Claim God made the universe all you like, but without any evidence you may as well be claiming that a giant purple farting hippo called Wally did it.

bellabreeze Mon 20-Aug-12 01:38:38
God has a plan for everyone

Was that aimed at me? What exactly could his plan for me have been then?

I've never sworn at anyone on MN in the years I've been here, but really, and I know it's your first day here at MN, you need to fuck off back to wherever you came from. That's exactly the attitude that puts me off any kind of religion.

What kind of God would want a child to experience the terror that I went through, or the pain that Expat and other parents on these boards are currently suffering, or my friend who had a stillborn baby last year, or that poor family who today have lost their 4 year old son to the sea?

That's no God that I want any part of. To credit God with all the good stuff, answering prayers etc, and the free will of man (or woman) with all the bad stuff lets him/her off the hook pretty well wouldn't you agree?

That natural disasters like famine play a part in Africa's problems is beyond question, I'm afraid - although, yes, greed & all of those other things prevent us being able to help when God shows his love like that.

I really, really hope you're not trying to claim that suffering is all down to human beings - because that's clear & complete nonsense.

mummysmellsofsick - The problem is, there are so many areas of the argument which destroy the concept of religion, and very little that support it, so this thread is quite all-over-the-place!

Jugglingwithfiverings - I agree, the beauty of a 5 year old child who is yet to be brainwashed! Simple enough for a young child to get it (albeit a very clever one ), but grown adults can't see it!

dreamofwhitehorses - The difference is, that scientist have a theory which is supported by lots of data. They refine the theory (or even completely destroy it and start again) as they learn more and more from testing. Your "belief" that god has lasted forever is not based upon anything other than an idea that a person made up out of thin air. It may have been written down in an old book, but this book is subjected to political bias and translation errors, and at the end of the day, the starting point was still an opinion, and not a fact. There is no healthy approach to proving this, and it is absolutely clear to anyone who is true to themselves that it is utter tosh! The words written in the bible is no more factual than the words written on some idiot's unscientific blog on the internet (some of it may be facts, other bits are baseless opinion).

So, I shall ask the question again, where did god come from. If everything in the universe has to have a maker, then who made god. Please try to answer it in a credible way.

Crikey, Seeker, I don't have an issue with evolution. But I don't feel it is as unreasonable as you do to wonder where the initial spark came from, and while we can understand the science and biology, what about the consciousness, we can make complex things in the lab, but we can't give them the spark of life

Crikey, Seeker, I don't have an issue with evolution. But I don't feel it is as unreasonable as you do to wonder where the initial spark came from, and while we can understand the science and biology, what about the consciousness, we can make complex things in the lab, but we can't give them the spark of life