to ask why you wouldn’t sign the petition?

[CircleSquareCircleSquare]

The petition set up by Amy Desir (one of the women who self identified as a man to attend a men only swim session) is asking the government to consult women on privacy and dignity that could be removed or impacted by proposed changes to the gender recognition act.

petition.parliament.uk/petitions/214118

The petition is merely asking for debate - doesn’t it come to something when women have to petition the government to have to ask to debate their safety?

Most gender critical feminists recognise trans human rights but we don’t want their identity and wishes to be placed above our safety.
I posted on MN recently about my experience of living in a domestic violence refuge as a child and now I was terrified of men, a male bodied person presenting as a female in that safe space would have terrified me and impacted my PTSD more than the other experiences already have.

If you haven’t signed it why not? Please reconsider, if only so both sides can be heard. Of course signing isn’t mandatory and I’m not angry but I would be interested in hearing more.

If you would like to sign it, you can find it here
petition.parliament.uk/petitions/214118 - your details are kept private. Please consider sharing.

No doubt the people who refused would be labelled bigoted and transphobic if it happened today.

as many have said could cause huge issues for trans people.

Exactly.

Do people not get that this whole thing is causing/very likely will cause problems for trans people too? We have had trans people on here explaining quite clearly why they don't want self ID and the problems it is already causing them. None of the people yelling "transphobe!" actually seem to care about that though. I wonder why....

For those who have just joined the thread, this explains what the law is now, and what the proposed changes are;

sages.org.uk/publications/sages-factsheet.html

It is complex area, with feelings running high on both sides, which is why it should be properly debated, and not treated as a done deal.

If you are a man with the mentality of raping a woman you are likely to be highly misogynistic, homophobic - the lot. Yes, men can lie, but would these men seek to humiliate themselves by identifying with the very thing they despise?

As things stand, there are so many communal changing rooms as it is. Far easier to just wander in there - as a man. Or hang about outside a woman's bathroom, or just follow a woman in there.

Despite the law, common sense will prevail, surely? If I was in a female changing room and a man came in, I would ask him why he's there, as would anyone else. I would deal with it the same way as I would a creep on the tube, in the workplace or any other space. Female changing rooms or toilets never struck me as particularly safe "sanctuaries" anyway - any man could barge in at any time, anywhere. Picking your moment is far easier than identifying as a woman!

Glitterati google Karen Hunt or Davina Ayrton. There are men who will get a kick out of being in a woman's space.

Let's move on from changing rooms to prisons, refuge's, rape counselling services, healthcare . How about sports. The implications of self ID are enormous. And many trans people are not in favour of self ID.

And all this petition is asking for us a debate. Like the one that is happening here.

Common sense?

What, like the "Common sense" the Police use, refusing to describe some offenders as men, as they identify as women? This is happening already, by the way.

You have more faith in the system than me!

smilethoyourheartisbreaking

It is the same thing. It boils down to the CHOICE of the individual whether they want to deal with the person who is identifying as the opposite sex. Whether they have had a sex change or are identifying as the opposite sex.

It's the same as now, if you go to the doctor and it's for an intimate problem, you can request a female doctor or have a chaperone with you.

I'm the type of person that I don't give a s**t, if someone is old or young, rich or poor, black or white, male, female or trans- as long as they can do their job that's all I care about.

However I am aware that for many, many people this would cause a considerable amount of stress and anxiety. Therefore I go back to what I said- it should be a choice.

That's why it's not black and white. At the end of the day no matter what happens, there will be thousands of people disappointed by the law.

Yes, men can lie, but would these men seek to humiliate themselves by identifying with the very thing they despise?

Our would they really rather enjoy humiliating the very thing they despise by going to any lengths?

@g1itterati

Despite the law, common sense will prevail, surely?

I don’t know. Leaving aside changing rooms, what do you think about children/teens and the changes to sex-segregated spaces and activities to make them gender-segregated?

Girl Guiding now says on overnight camps a trans girl (born male, so a pubescent teen or pre-pubescent boy) should be able to choose to sleep in with the biological female girls and parents of the girls should not be informed.

Girl guiding runs from 10-14. A 14 year old boy, struggling with both puberty and gender identity, could be sharing with 10 year olds.

Do you remember being a teenager? I do. Hormones and confiding feelings about sex and identity are pretty much de rigour. It’s practically asking for trouble.

If GG does it, schools will end up doing it too - secondary trips will be a fucking nightmare, pardon the pun. Schools may decide they have no choice but to stop risking it.

I am so concerned the needs of the few, however valid and worthy, are outweighing the needs of the many.

I am actually hugely sympathetic to trans concerns and I don’t like that this issue is causing genuine people genuine distress.

But I will not see biology thrown out as unimportant or “uncool”.

Penis = male sex.
Identify how you like, but sex organs are sex organs. Not gender. We have sex characteristics. We have gender feelings (perhaps, I’m not sold on this but willing to concede it). I will support your gender if you leave my sex segregation alone.

Nosquirrels actually it's worse.
Guiding ages are as follows:
Rainbows 5-7
Brownies 7-10
Guides 10-14
Rangers 14- 18 (up to 19th birthday)
Currently Rangers are 14-25 but that's changing next year.

So when a Ranger group goes camping, or on an indoor getaway, you could have a just 14 yr old girl sharing with an 18 yr old biological male.

Leaders are not allowed to tell parents that a transgirl is going.

Many guide owned camp sites and houses only have "girls" and "leaders" toilets and showers so providing an alternative would be impossible.

Been trying to do this for about a week till I realised the email was going into my junk box!!!!
Shared to my Facebook and Twitter... Let them come at me I'm not in the slightest bit arsed😂 This is SO important.

But even if you take the hyper-masculine men out of the equation, very very few "normal" men would ever be prepared to utter the words, "I identify as a woman." It's a ridiculous thing to say and would be interpreted as such. They would just not be taken seriously.

I see why on an instinctive level, this seems unlikely; but a few men (and probably a tiny number of women) will behave in a predatory manner. No one is suggesting that all or most transvestites will do this. Laws should not be based on 'oh, it will all work out'.

Amy Desir has clearly demonstrated that total self ID, in defiance of common sense, is policy and practice in some swimming pools. There are a number of documented cases of men claiming to be women as part of real life predatory behaviour.

More than that, however, women (and men) should have a right to sex segregated privacy where needed. They don't need to justify it by pointing out the abusive weirdos.

That's before we get into the effects of self ID: prisons, sport, access to services etc.

So we are supposed to just accept the "Some, but not a lot" rule.

There will obviously be some attacks, and some loss of jobs/scholarships/sports etc for women, and generally a loss of boundaries and, of course, the notion of "Women" as an actual biological entity;

But that is all just tickety-boo, as only some men will really take advantage.

What's the acceptable level for some? Do we get to debate that?

Sorry, haven't read everything here.

I signed as soon as it started.

Am so tired of the whole thing tbh.

So many people are not hearing/seeing what seems obvious to me.

It really feels like there are alternative realities.

Thanks for persisting CircleSquare

@averylongtimeago

I know. I guess I think 10-14 is the massive jump - but that could be because I’m not yet a parent of a teen 14+. By 14-18 at least most will be in the same “head space”
i.e. 14-18 is definitely teen & puberty, but 10 is totally still child.

It’s not OK. I’m older and cynical and I can call out bullshit if I need to. Even so, I am socialised not to. It takes effort, if needed, to push back and say NO.

I remember being a teen. My boundaries were more fluid. I didn’t know how to navigate even the “normal” hetero boy-girl stuff, let alone what was OK to be in favour of or not.

I get that it’s really fucking confusing if you’re trans, or gay, or lesbian, or bi, or just non-conforming. I am extremely sympathetic to the Paris Lees stance on trans kids and suicude rates and how fuckinb awful that is. I am teaching my DC: non-conforming is A-OK. You do you. Etc. But WTF - I should accept unquestioningly that a gender-fluid teen (because they CAN’T self-ID under-18) is OK to sleep in with girls who might get pregnant if a teen identifying “experiment” went a bit unexpectedly wrong?

No.

@missjaysays

Shared to my Facebook and Twitter... Let them come at me I'm not in the slightest bit arsed😂 This is SO important.

sharing is brilliant and I applaud you because I feel I can’t... yet. I’m hoping I’ll get to fly on the coat-tails of all you early sharers. Right now - professionally I’d get shafted. I hope the tide will turn and in the meantime I’ll keep bothering MN and talking in person with people.

Are the people who think this is transphobic actually aware of what trans actually is?

Crossdressers, autogynephiles and transvestites are now classed as trans, along with people who "feel" like a woman some days.

Most people don't mind the genuine transsexuals. But I wonder how many people really grasp that Crossdressers and agps will be able to share a changing room with their daughters.

Thanks to everyone who is responding! Let’s keep talking about this, the more we talk the more people see it and realise what an issue this is.

Thanks to the people who are signing too! Sharers - you’re brave! I commend you all.

@Terfinater
Most people don't mind the genuine transsexuals. But I wonder how many people really grasp that Crossdressers and agps will be able to share a changing room with their daughters.

It is exactly this. The whole debate centres on-

Trans: We’ve been doing this for years, transphobe.

Feminist: Yes, but you’ve been passing and happy to observe norms and you’ve been invested enough to get a GRC. Now it might all change, let’s have a discussion?

Trans: BIGOT. TRANSPHOBE! MEDICALISING US!

Gliteratu, humiliation is a fetish.

Menstruation is a fetish too for some men. They call them bloodhounds. They get aroused by hearing women unwrap tampons.

Women peeing is also a fetish, and men place cameras in toilets to film them. Identify as a woman at in the morning, pop in the camera, and drop by at the end of the day to pick it up. Self ID: no need even for lipstick.

Control is a fetish. Forcing obviously uncomfortable and unhappy and embarrasedcwinen to be polite to you is very arousing for some men.

Let's not be naive here.

Because it's transphobic and consequently discriminatory . . .

Because it's transphobic and consequently discriminatory

To ask to debate the topic is transphobic and discriminatory? I don't think it is. A dictionary may help you find the definition of debate.

Do you not think that those women who do feel threatened by men (victims of rape/violence for example) should be considered at all?

How about victims of violence inflicted by women? It may be a smaller number, it doesn't mean that they should be ignored.