to ask why you wouldn’t sign the petition?

[CircleSquareCircleSquare]

The petition set up by Amy Desir (one of the women who self identified as a man to attend a men only swim session) is asking the government to consult women on privacy and dignity that could be removed or impacted by proposed changes to the gender recognition act.

petition.parliament.uk/petitions/214118

The petition is merely asking for debate - doesn’t it come to something when women have to petition the government to have to ask to debate their safety?

Most gender critical feminists recognise trans human rights but we don’t want their identity and wishes to be placed above our safety.
I posted on MN recently about my experience of living in a domestic violence refuge as a child and now I was terrified of men, a male bodied person presenting as a female in that safe space would have terrified me and impacted my PTSD more than the other experiences already have.

If you haven’t signed it why not? Please reconsider, if only so both sides can be heard. Of course signing isn’t mandatory and I’m not angry but I would be interested in hearing more.

If you would like to sign it, you can find it here
petition.parliament.uk/petitions/214118 - your details are kept private. Please consider sharing.

@CrazyDuchess

"I won't be signing and do not need to explain my decision"

You don't need to. But when you've hidden a whole topic because you think people are so prejudiced then it would be really interesting and probably enlightening to hear your point of view.

Signed. Thanks for posting link.

smilethoyourheartisbreaking

Yes I believe it goes both ways.

This is why I said 'it's not black or white'. It's such a gray area. I believe in the rights of men identifying as women, and women identifying as men. However, I believe in the rights of men and women, not to have a person who identifies as the opposite sex, to deal with them, be in their personal vicinity etc if that makes them uncomfortable for any reason.

Its a very gray area.

And this petition is clearly one that comes attached to some fairly dubious groups with some views on social control I'm not comfortable with, who want to use "debate" as a way of spreading bigotry and hysteria about how queues of sex offenders are waiting outside women's loos.

Ok. I'm trying to be accepting of all views but it's hard.

Any woman who wants to support women, their children, their mothers, sisters, female in-laws and, yes, transwomen would, imo, want these issues discussed.

The alternative is to have laws made without your input or knowledge.

If that's what you want then fine. It's your life, your vote.

But it makes me very sad.

Nobody on here is anti trans. In fact we have several trans posters as well as parents of trans children who contribute quite regularly to these threads who agree with us so-called bigots. We are however anti self identification. People do understand what the words gender self identification mean don't they?

We need to get away from the whole toilets and, to a lesser extent, changing room debate. Fine if you wouldn't mind mixed sex toilets or changing rooms with cubicles but this is about domestic violence shelters, sports, prisons, rape crisis centres...all of which are single sex and for very good reason. Don't think this won't happen because it already is happening.

signed

G1itterati

Prone to ridicule? Really? He would have a LEGAL right to be there, - and women could not have him removed, because he would have the defence of being a woman, even if he was 6ft 4in tall and sporting a beard!
My sports centre has a large open room, with benches, sinks and a few cubicles. This is a common arrangement. If I go in there with my children to get them changed for gymnastics, and a man walks in and sits down to watch, I hardly think me laughing at him will make him run off.

Some men like to make women feel uncomfortable - it's the threat they enjoy.

Are you aware that many Transwomen self-ID as lesbians? What sort of bodies do you think they are attracted to?

Labour has a Constituency Woman's Officer, Lily Madigan, who is a Transwomen, with no physical changes beyond longish hair, - who has just declared they are a "Gay gal" !

Nice one Proudtrout btw.

Thank you, tried a different email address and it worked this time!

@g1itterati

Men who want to hurt women go to all kinds of extents in order to do it. Why would saying the words "I identify as a woman" so nobody can legally challenge him be too of a stretch? Why do you think women's domestic violence shelters exist?

It's not just about fear of being raped or assaulted either. It's also about comfort, dignity and respect. All of the leisure centres I've used have all had open plan changing rooms with no cubicles. I, like no doubt a lot of women, would not feel comfortable getting changed in front of someone who is clearly biologically male. I don't give a shit how he identifies.

Psychologically, for a rapist, identifying as female would negate the drive to rape the "other," "lesser" or "victim" which is their perception of female.

Yeah. Although you do get that they won't actually think of themselves as female?

That will just be a lie. Like many other lies rapists tell in order to, you know, rape women.

They're not above lying.

They don't have to actually say the words. They can just walk into a changing room, scan it, see a lone female, rape her, walk out. They're not going to have a discussion about what stereo typical gender they identify with.

Pity that no one will be able to stop them going into the changing room in the first place but never mind hey.

Oh wait, hang on. Women do have a chance to put their views across.

If you think that there should be some discussion about whether men should be allowed to walk into female changing areas unchallenged, then please do sign the petition.

@flagnogbagnog

*too much.

peach but its petitioning the government to consult with women's groups. The womens groups they consult with would not be decided by the petitioners, it would surely be decided by the government.

For those asking about IH www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/02/15/call-lian-child-killer-ian-huntley-has-told-inmates-call-feminine/

The thing is though is that I, along with probably most women, know fine well that a man doesn't actually have to do anything illegal in order to scare, intimidate or make a woman feel uncomfortable.

I've been catcalled and wolf whistled at whilst walking alone in the street at night when there was only myself and the offending men around. They weren't doing anything illegal but it still didn't stop me from feeling intimidated and scared by it.

So a man could self ID as a woman in order to access female toilets or changing rooms and not actually do anything illegal but just wants to freak a woman out.

I've signed because I think it has significant implications for both women's and trans rights that are not being fully considered.

I worry that the status quo until recently - where transitioned trans women have been largely accepted - is under threat.

I worry that even the current laws are being wrongfully interpreted to the detriment of women and transitioned women.

I'm angry that the Labour Party is "under the guise" of equality allowing Transwomen on all women shortlist's, in the name of equality when if they did believe in diversity when they should be promoting women, BAME, LBG and Trans candidates. As is they pit women and Trans women against each other with Trans Men out in the cold.

I'm concerned about sports - trans athletes should be able to complete, but how can that be achieved fairly?

I'm damn sure that some Male prisoners are using current legislation for illicit purposes.

I'm sure that some men will use current and more so proposed legislation to fulfil nefarious action against women.

I'm worried about the impact of this on women and the backlash against the Trans community.

It's a complex and emotive topic which is exactly why it needs to be debated properly so that any proposed legislation is effective in securing equality and fairness for everyone.

This is why you should sign.

Many many moons ago, I worked for a national care company at head office.

I went to one of my homes one day and the manager said 'I have a problem'. She had hired a 'gentleman' who was in the middle of a sex change so was identifying as a women. She asked where she should put him/her for personal care. I had no idea, so asked head office. They had no idea. So I suggested we asked the service users themselves.

So we explained to them what was happening, and that it was their choice if they wished to be attended to by this person.

Out of 26, only 2 refused. The rest praised the lady, how good she was, considerate, her patience, how she respected them during personal care etc.

But the point I'm making is that the ladies had a choice. They were informed, and as they all had mental capacity, they made their own decisions as to whether they wanted this lady working with them.

To be honest I was surprised at the outcome. I assumed that the rejections would be far higher, given the age range (65-102).

@peacheachpearplum
NoSquirrels, I have a brilliant MP, she is intelligent and in my opinion one of the best MPs I have ever had the pleasure to vote for. I am happy with how she represents my views on many issues, including this one.

I’m glad you’re informed on this and know your MP’s position. I don’t know my MP’s position, as they haven’t stated it publicly yet, but I know the party position and the opposition parties’ position and I’m not impressed so far.

It’s vital to know what your ejected representatives think.

On the question of “who will speak for us”, my take is that this petition raises the possibility of their being a fairer debate because then any women’s organisation can ask to speak/be asked to speak on the issue. At which point I’d hope to hear a range of opinion sources from the WI to pro-trans groups.

I take this petition as just the plea to consult with women - the particular women yet to be determined.

Although the focus tends to be on changing rooms and toilets,(and I just mentioned them previously!), I agree that it is too reductive, the discussion must be widened.
Self ID will impact on everything that is measured or segregated according to sex;

Reserved posts/jobs on shortlists
Scholarships to encourage wider female participation
Statistics gathered on employment, pay, health, education.
Public Awards originally designed to promote female role models.
Sport
Any kind of segregated space - refuge, rape crisis centre, prison.

Personally, I do not think this should just be waved through Parliament, and I want it discussed.

ejected representatives

@snowysky
But the point I'm making is that the ladies had a choice

THIS. ^^