When you love your friends but not their kids.

[stirringbeast]

I have 2 very good friends whom I see a lot. They are both wonderful kind and generous ladies.

However I'm finding it harder and harder to spend time with them. It's their kids. Neither of them has much control at all - their children come and trash my house, scoff all the biscuits leaving none for mine, whine for more and more treats when we're out which they eventually give in to, making me look mean for not doing the same, speak rudely to their mothers which my kids are now starting to copy etc etc.

I find I am constantly biting my lip when we're together. The closest I have come to saying anything is telling the children on several occasions that certain behaviours are not acceptable in my house. I got some uncomfortable looks from the mothers on these occasions.

Obviously my children are not angels and certainly have their moments but I believe that the parent should be firmly in charge.

I don't like things to fester away leaving bad atmospheres but I'm not sure I should say anything to my friends about how hard I'm finding it. I think they will get defensive and it will ruin the friendship.

Has anyone experienced this? What did you do?

ruhavingalarf,MarineIguana and SilverStuddedBlue - thanks so much for your encouragement. People keep saying that they saw a huge difference in their boys between three and four, so I'll keep on trying. DD was born last week and he is being lovely with her, so I'm clinging to that as a sign of hope.

LeQueen - I haven't "left it" until 3.5 to start disciplining DS1, just nothing seems to work at the moment. Maybe now I'm getting my energy back after giving birth I'll become more effective - at least I can physically catch him now.

Some of these issues (breaking other people's property) are perhaps clearer cut than others (how to deal with shyness. That's fine. Different parents have different beliefs about what good parenting is. So a lot of people here don't believe that a laissez-faire, gentle-to-a-fault approach is kind to the child. Fine, and I probably agree that it can be carried too far.

But a lot of you seem to believe that these parents with ill-behaved children are just too lazy to parent properly, and that's pretty damn offensive.

Maybe they're misguided, and it's your right to disagree with them to the extent that it affects you and your children. But to assume laziness is just arrogant. And lazy itself.

Even if it is the case that some parents spend less time and energy dealing with their children's behaviour than others, that's often not as simple as all that either. If you're short on support, or resources, maybe you feel like it's better to direct your finite parenting energy to making it through the day? Or, as LeQueen alluded to, you decide to capitalise on other parenting talents instead? Maybe some of these parents are dealing with SN children, and you don't know? I realise the OP is talking about good friends, but there's a lot that goes on under the surface.

I'm sure we can talk about different parenting approaches, and protecting our own territory and our own children from those without without plumping ourselves up that we're just more hardworking than other people.

I don't believe if a child hasn't started behaving by 3.5 then it's too late. They are still toddlers and they are learning. It's perfectly natural for them to push boundaries at this age. As long as they you show them they can only push so far then eventually they will learn what is acceptable and what isn't.

I totally agree with picking battles. If you try to change lots of different things all at once, nag them all the times and have millions of rules you run the risk of them switching off, ignoring all of them and not achieving anything. If you pick the things that really matter then you've more chance of getting them to comply. I've seen having a list of house rules work really well so they are constantly there as a reminder.

Tortoiseonthehalfshell you raise an interesting point. Do the others who have posted as I have think that we are witnessing sin of omission or a sin of commission on the part of the parent, but with the same net result on the behaviour of the child?
In the RL example that irks me it is a misguided maternal response (or lack of) not laziness, like the 'pushing down the stairs' example of a previous post. Which is why I would worry about putting my perception of the reality into action by saying something to either parent.
Interestingly this mum consistently rubbishes, and I think exagerates, the bad characteristics of virtually all the children that we know as mutual friends. I'd be interested to hear her perception of my dd, and my parenting, but would struggle not to take it to heart.
Every example comes with a unique set of circumstances - but does anyone have a one size fits all answer? There's definitely a fair few parents out there experiencing a problem as described by the OP.

I have a friend who has 3 DC. She has always been pretty strict with them and her older 2 are very well behaved in general. However, her youngest is a slightly different kettle of fish! She said herself that if he'd been someone else's child when her DS1 was the same age as her youngest is now (nearly 4), she wouldn't have let her DS1 play with such a child, iyswim.

No difference in upbringing, just different personalities - but her youngest caused some problems when I went over to see her, as he seemed to actively resent my DS being there, refused to share toys, took them off my DS (who is only 2) and nearly pushed him down the stairs. Mostly I didn't intervene other than in a passive way - as in "come and play with this toy, DS as X doesn't want you to have that other one" - but I did tell X off when he had his hand in the small of DS's back at the top of the stairs (and my friend was more than happy that I did so - she doesn't want the guilt of her DS hurting mine!)

Similarly I would expect my friend to tell off my DS if he was doing something dangerous or bad. (However, I do object to people telling him off for sucking his thumb - he is allowed to, it is no business of anyone else's, it doesn't hurt them in any way and they are just sticking their nose in.)

Am horrified at a few of the stories here, especially the one where a little oik did push another DC down the stairs and the mum dismissed it!!

Can't believe this is still going!

Very interesting points, have really enjoyed reading through this.

More votes for the not saying anything direct. I just remembered actually when a friend of mine (don't really see her any more, we both moved) told me how another friend of hers (who I didn't know) told her how she thought her 4 yr old ds was completely out of control and she needed to discipline him more. My friend was so offended and cut all contact immediately with this other woman.

The thing is, her boy WAS out of control, she was knackered and stressed and always on edge. But she was saying it to me like I was going to be on her side, which I was in a support kind of way, but I also agreed with the woman's opinion. I didn't say anything one way or the other, just made sympathetic noises. Part of me felt I should say (nicely, if possible) what I really thought, but there was no way she was going to take it well so what's the point really?

Maybe it all comes down to expectations. For example, I expect that if I leave sweets within reach of a 1 or 2 year old they will take them. I don't expect a 3 year old or older child to do that. I expect them either to ask if they can have one or if I've told them to leave the sweets alone then I expect them to do that. That's what I expect so that's what I've taught my children.

My friend still thinks it's normal for her 8 year old to take things if she's "silly enough" to leave it within his reach. She also thinks it's too much to expect children to sit quietly, not interrupt, accept they can't have something and not whine or sceam - she must think that's just what children do.

So not laziness, just much lower expectations.

chickbean - many congrats on your DD. My DD changed my life and I believe made an enormous difference to my DS.

Lots of boys have loads of testosterone esp at certain ages and its my experience that its this that contributes to a lot of the rough behaviour. Of course it needs tough parenting and clear boundaries - and there are some parents that are more effective at it than others. As tortoise very adeptly put, its the arrogance and assumption on the part of some of the posters on this thread thats depressing. And I may get flamed for this, but quite a few mothers with just girls have no idea what you are going through.

They do get better as they get older, and I can't tell you the joy I feel attending groups with my DD who is perfectly behaved. I watch mums who had a DD at the same time as my DS who now have a DS who's kicking off, and instead of feeling "ha! your turn! " as I thought I would, I feel great empathy.

Exuberant boys when they are little are great. They have very different needs to girls, need to be able to vent that testosterone and must have clear boundaries etc. But to say they are monsters, horrors etc is just too precious for words.

the way i found around this was explaining my ds had picked up some bad habits and i was setting rules in the house and i dont want to seem bossy but i want him to see others do it too so you wouldnt mind if we let him see that others need to abide by them too

my friends were more than happy as they felt they were doing me a favour i set rules when they came in how i wanted them all to behave and then off we go apologised again to my friend but said i wanted to knock this behaviour on the head lol

My 3 year old would ask for chocolate if it was where it normally is (in a cupboard he can't reach) but just helps himself stuff to things out of the fridge (which I don't mind - it's all healthy stuff in there) and if there was chocolate left out he would presume he was allowed it as it wasn't in the usual place he can't reach IYSWIM. If I didn't want him to have it and he did it would be my fault for leaving it out. Many 3 year olds barely speak so I don't think 3 is the right age to start expecting they ask first if it's right there in front of them. It's like if I go to people's houses and they have bowls of nuts or crisps out. I presume they are there to be eaten - I don't ask first and they wouldn't expect me to!

Hi Stirringbeast et al,

Got to say 'thank the Lord' for mothers like you. I have to confess to being pretty horrified that some people on this thread think that being rude to an adult in their own home and treating their house as essentially a hotel/dustbin is acceptable very depressing.

No manners, no social responsibility, no barriers ....many children are raised this way and I experienced this at a party I had for 7 year olds recently. 'I want more pizza' and 'give me another biscuit' ..kids chanting, banging the table and being aggressive and downright unpleasant- what is going on with the world when some people (on this thread) would excuse this behaviour and tell the adult to 'lighten up' ??? Don't think I was the most popular mum in the world when I made it clear no manners, no treats...

Not into smacking or anything (a whole different thread) but what kind of adults are these people raising - if they don't get what they want in their teens will they simply push their mum/the adult out of the way physically (or worse)??

Rant over. Parent as you wish, but you reap as you sow!!

Well done for sticking to your guns. If your friend's children are so awful, find a new friend and if she questions it, then mention your nerves simply couldn't handle having to deal with it and you didn't want to end the friendship over it ..you never know she may not bite (doubt it!!!).

x

Hi RUhvingalaugh and other mum's of boys - please please don't think it's mum's of 'angelic' girls having a poke at mums of boys. That's so not true (my dd's acquired phrase having started school but as a cliche it makes me and it fits here)! Girls aren't good because they lack a Y chromosome, and likewise an exhuberant boy shouldn't be labelled bad. As everyone seems to be unanimous on one point, which is obvious, that we are nurturing the next generation of adults. Perhaps that is the message that needs to be subtley re-inforced to mothers who are act as if they are blind to their little darling's misdemeanours.

In my experience I don't mind another mum I know reprimanding my child - it actually has a more immediate impact. One good friend has told me the same - but it's darn tricky to pull off and I stress immensely about it. Especially when a 4 year old answers back very disdainfully with - "You're not on my favourite list of mummies and xxxx (one's child) isn't coming to my party but everyone else is invited".

For some reason I've started commenting to mums that I don't even know if I've found their child's behaviour particularly praiseworthy e.g. politeness and consideration in a playbarn. Is that very wierd? Actually playbarns/playareas are a bugbear of mine. Specifically those mums who just let their bigger hyper kids burn off their energy as if they own the place, literally turning their backs on them, and not checking that other smaller children aren't being shoved off slides, bounced off bouncy castles...rant rant . There's a place for consideration and manners and taking turns even in play areas. Perhaps commenting on good behaviour to strangers is a displacement activity for not having the guts to confront bad behaviour.

My DS was born wild. I was shocked, shocked, shocked at just how wild. He was akin to an ape. He was angry at the world, screaming and crying from the start. The first four years were literally like taming a beast.

He's 6 now and whilst he still has his angry moments, when the testosterone takes over, he knows the boundaries and is golden boy at school, top of his class etc etc

My DD on the other hand, was at peace with the world from birth.

Different kids, different stories. You can't judge the behaviour of other people's kids without knowing a massive amount of background. It would mean making just too many assumptions. Everyone has a different story and a different child to work with.

ruhavingalarf - well done with your son - he sounds like the sort of boy I like - intelligent and spirited - and with all your help and perseverence now a lad with great potential ahead of him. These are the sorts of examples that we all need . what sort of things did you discover worked for you?

liked the testosterone reference - it's so true - 'cos we ladies never have our hormonal moments

ruhavingalarf that's intersesting because it's been the other way round for me!

My fiery, tempestuous, wilful, but gorgeous dd was born raging and screaming. At 3 she's still a stubborn, strong willed little so and so although probably not physically wild, more emotionally very reactive.

By contast ds came out from an easy delivery with barely a whimper and sits and lies happily gurgling and cooing, he's 18 weeks now and even when he cries seems more disappointed and forlorn than angry whereas dd was soooo angry.

I remember when she was born after a difficuly delivery the midwives looked shocked at the noise she was making. When ds was born I was frantic with woory that he wasn't ok as he was so quiet. The midwives reassured me he was breathing and his little snuffly noises meant he was just fine!

Spirited - yes, he stole mine. . I love my DS fiercely, AND he is very hard work. As has been said, you can't fight every battle, you have to pick your moments. It would demoralise both of you if you were correcting things all day.

No one thing works, its mixed and age appropriate. My little fella responds much better to praise, so focusing on the positive, sticker charts etc. Altho now he's older there have to be some gogos or match attax cards for 10 stickers.....but hey bribery works well here.

The testosterone surge in boys is well documented - Steve Biddulph's book Raising Boys is a great entry level read to explaining it. Unlike our hormones, the surges can last months, even years though.

Off out now. Been looking forward to this all week, lunch with 3 lovely, lively boys and my DD and their 3 mums. Yes, she's at peace with the world, but with an older brother as described can well hold her own in the melee.

minx - that is really interesting. my DS was a difficult delivery - 36 hours, ventouse etc , vs my DD who was out in an hour no probs. Is there any research out there on early years behaviour and ease of delivery I wonder?

Really off out now.

Have only read the first and last pages sorry but I can totally see what you mean OP.

I have a lovely friend I met at postnatal but her dd is a riht handful and it's getting to be a struggle every time I see her. I must confess I have actively reduced the amount of playdates we have and encouraged time spent with just me and my friend.

I really enjoy time with her but find myself incredulously gritting my teeth over the stuff she lets her dd do.

When we're at my friend's house then I let it go but still wouldn't let my own dds have half a pack of biscuits half an hour before tea. At my house - especially when I'm looking after her on my own - I treat them all the same. It is really hard though. You do enjoy spending time more with parents who have similar 'styles' to your own..

what an interesting thread!

chickbean

I have a wild ds too. I would recommend reading 'How to Talk so Kids will Listen and how to listen so kids will talk' and also 'Raising your Spirited Child'.

That is, if you have any energy!

We tried time outs and '1,2,3' and being 'strict' with ds and it just made him worse. Now we are trying prevention rather than punishment and it's working much much better. We probably look a bit 'laid back' as parents but we are hoping that this will lead to a general improvement in ds' self discipline. He's 2.5yo.

There is an interesting quote in Alfie Kohn's book about unconditional parenting which is a someone's reply to parents who are complaining about their teens are going 'off the rails': 'For years you told them what to do, what to think, what to wear and they listened to you. Now they are still doing as they are told but they are listening to their peers, not you'. (from my poor memory).

That really stuck with me as to a certain extent I was that teen and I want to do things differently with ds.

Well have just had afternoon of hell with my own DS so now questioning all my parenting theories!

We had 2 girls over to play after school, one for older dd and one he asked for from his class, but he wouldn't share anything with her, wouldn't listen to me, was rude, obnoxious, etc etc....

He spent much of the time sitting on a chair in the kitchen while his friend played with my younger dd, until he could stop screaming and play nicely. I did feel slightly self-conscious taking him into the kitchen to skelp his bum discipline him with 2 guests in the house. I just imagine them going home and telling their mums what a witch I am, but still I know it was the right thing to do. And thanks to this thread, I really know that!

But what I mean is if we feel a bit awkward doing that then it's even harder to correct others' dcs.

Thinking about it though, my DS used to be like that almost every day a couple of years ago, whereas now I'm surprised when he has "that" kind of day, so maybe something is going into his head....

When I texted the other mother to say we were on our way to drop her dd home and that my DS had been horrendous, she sent a reply to say I could feel free to tell her DD off of she did anything unacceptable. It's so much easier when friends are on the same wavelength.

Minxofmancunia enjoy your baby ds - mine turned into a horror aged 2!

Oh....meant to score out "skelp his bum" obviously!

Ilovemybed I read Alfie Kohn, really considered it as an option. I can see good in it. But instinctively I just don't agree with it. I know he says it's not about letting kids do anything they want, but IME it's virtually impossible to reconcile this approach with the real world. I don't like having to be "mean" to my dcs at times, but I feel I have to as I don't think they will grow into civilised adults who respect others, by accident.

The more time I spend with parents and children the more I am coming round to the view that sometimes it is genuinely not the parents fault - some kids seem to be born difficult. We have friends who are great parents, consistent, firm etc but their pre schooler is, ahem, challenging and has a real malicious streak. I dont know what else they could do over and above what they are doing with regards to her behaviour. I have had to limit our meetings to public places or adults only to prevent dd being effectively bullied (physically and verbally) in her own home, which was what was happening. Difficult as I really like the parents but theres only so many times you can watch your child being given a surreptious shove off a low step so she falls and cracks her head on a concrete path .

TBH I couldn't care less why a kid is a PITA, whether it is parenting or personality or whatever. But it isn't happening in my house and if I don't like someone (either adult or child) then I am going to avoid them if possible - I do think it is a bit sad when kids are allowed to run wild and people start noticing and distancing themselves, but the people who need to work on that are the parents of the PITA kid.

Maybe sometimes it's not the parents' fault and the child is born difficult, but certainly most times it's the parents' fault.

And please don't accept that boys will in general be worse-behaved than girls. There's no need for that to be true. I have been strict with my two boys and they have pretty much always behaved fine.