When you love your friends but not their kids.

[stirringbeast]

I have 2 very good friends whom I see a lot. They are both wonderful kind and generous ladies.

However I'm finding it harder and harder to spend time with them. It's their kids. Neither of them has much control at all - their children come and trash my house, scoff all the biscuits leaving none for mine, whine for more and more treats when we're out which they eventually give in to, making me look mean for not doing the same, speak rudely to their mothers which my kids are now starting to copy etc etc.

I find I am constantly biting my lip when we're together. The closest I have come to saying anything is telling the children on several occasions that certain behaviours are not acceptable in my house. I got some uncomfortable looks from the mothers on these occasions.

Obviously my children are not angels and certainly have their moments but I believe that the parent should be firmly in charge.

I don't like things to fester away leaving bad atmospheres but I'm not sure I should say anything to my friends about how hard I'm finding it. I think they will get defensive and it will ruin the friendship.

Has anyone experienced this? What did you do?

I quite often look after my friends kids and they are the same. I openly scream at her kids just as much as i do at mine, these are your friends and these are only kids, not adults....we are all different, wouldnt it be boring if we were all the same, perhaps if you got to know the kids better you would find some positives to focus on instead of the negatives of the wee souls. They are only little and need to let loose and discover manipulation techniques lol and we need to help mould them when they do.

Years ago, long long before my DS arrived, I was looking after a boyfriend's 4 yr old DS. He wound me up and up, eventually I said "If you do that again I'll smack you." Instinctive - that's what my mother used to say. And then he did it again. Oops! I stared at him, thinking "shit, now what" then decided that having said what I'd do if, I'd better get on with it. So I took his leg (that being nearest) and smacked it reasonably hard. Felt terrible! He screamed blue murder, daddy came running, I explained, Daddy shrugged - not a great parent that man. Upshot was that me and this kid got on very well after that, and I know it was because I had done what I said I'd do. In that case it was a smack - not proud of that - but it did tell the boy that there were boundaries, and he was happy with that. He knew he could trust me to do what I said. I missed him terribly when I split up from his dad...

I don't always boundary my DS enough, and after a while he starts kicking off, and then I tighten up again and harmony - of a kind - resumes.

OP do you tell your friend's dcs off? My dd isn't especially badly behaved or anything but I would be completely fine with my friends telling her off if they thought it was appropriate, so long as they weren't aggressive with her and didn't scare her. I think it's good for children to learn to respect adults and good for your friends to feel that they don't have to tiptoe round your parenting style. I often tell other people's chilren off (nicely - 'don't do that, my love, it's dangerous...') if the situation warrants it, for example, if they are standing much closer to me than to their parent and are playing with a plug socket.

I don't have a problem at all if someone else ticks off DS, assuming it's justified. But I have found that some parents hate it if I do it to their DC (again nicely). DH does it more than me - he once told a friend's child, in a perfectly calm and pleasant tone, that it was a bit naughty to throw a toy in his face, and picked up the toy. He got a telling-off himself from the mum for using the word "naughty"

I'm just struck by the nightmares unruly kids will be creating once they are at school - then all the kids will suffer, from having loud, demanding, destructive, rude & disruptive kids in the class. The parents will no doubt be relieved the kids aren't their problem for X hours of the day.

I have no problem talking to any child the same way as I talk to DD, but that tends to be in a calm & fair manner. I don't have issue with my friends reprimanding DD either - I think it's great & she learns it's not just me who occasionally finds aspects of her behaviour unacceptable.

I guess I have a fairly laid back style, but don't take any shit & have clear guidelines. I also have relatively easy toddler (though she is firey & does have a temper) - perhaps things wouldn't be so rosy with a more troublesome child.

I can't help wondering how all the sugar the kids causing trouble (as mentioned above) contributes to the behaviour. We keep sugar items as an occasional treat on weekend, and for parties, holidays etc. DD doesn't even know what fizzy drinks are, and we've even taken her off the diluted juice - and her appetite has improved remarkably. She doesn't mind at all now. So juice is added to the treat list - after all it's basically just sugar.

I agree with Bessie, I would speak to other people's children if they weren't around/near enough to deal with the children themselves.
I think it is healthy for children to develop other kinds of relationship with adults outside the family. Plus we all have a responsibility to keep them safe.
This way they will learn that there are other kinds of rules and behaviours outside of what they know already from nursery and at home. Sooner or later they will have to confront these differences as they become more independent.
I also feel it is appropriate to tell my friend's children when I am happy with what they are doing and when I am not. I find they do respond to me quite well if I tell them I am not happy with X and sometimes have a chat about it (where age appropriate).
I definitely wouldn't smack somebody else's child (try my utmost not to smack mine as well)

Stirring what do you think you will do about your situation?

even though I don't think it's unacceptable to gently reprimand a friends dc I do think more severe tellings off should be saved for the parents, if they're trashing your home ask them to leave/parents to pick up and calmly explain why.

I try not to scream and shout at dd (although I will say "no" firmly, this particular instruction seems to have gone out of vogue of late) so I won't do it to her friends.

I have a friend who goes completely ott telling off dd for v minor transgressions imo. it's only this friend that does this, she's a perfectionist and a teacher and I think she forgets she's not in the classroom sometimes. She also has a ds who's v meek and mild and although he stays glued to her side and never does anything wrong he's also pretty rude as he never syas "hello" "goodbye" "please" or "thankyou" just sulks and turns into her leg. Dd may be a bit more spirited but always v polite and chatty, won't toletarte her ignoring adults.

It goes both ways imo.

I think sugar can contribute to crazy behaviour, and for some children more than others, but I think is used as an excuse by many parents. I do have a friend who has opted for a sugar free diet for her sons who were struggling at school to concentrate and it has made a big difference. But you can't blame sugar for bad behaviour. Children still need to know what is right and wrong - sugar or no sugar - and that comes down to you as parents, and also teachers, relatives, friends, neighbours etc.

I have no qualms with kindly ticking off another child. Just like I will do the same to teenagers/adults who are swearing in a public place when there are children near by. I've never had a mouthful yet.

THERE - I disagree about waiting until you get home before disciplining. Certainly for DD she would have moved completely on from the moment, and discipline would be unreasonable so long after the event. I try to always deal with the situation immediately - I've timed her out on the train, under a tree in France, in a shop - wherever I need to & its working.

Then we can have an apology & cuddle & move on straight away. Done! Until next time .....

A restaurant is hardly the same thing as school. I allow DS to jump on the beds and sofa, play with balls and his bike in the house but he accepts that they are my rules and he can't do it anywhere else unless they say he can. If I allowed him to sit under the table at a restaurant cos it was a bit boring or he felt overwhelmed or whatever he wouldn't then expect to do it at school. He knows that there are different and appropiate rules for different places.

The only reason I offered DS that many things to eat was because I thought he can't go from 7am til 4pm with absolutely nothing to eat so it was out of desperation. I'd never done it before and I think he was a bit bewildered by it all and so kept refusing. Once I backed off he was happy to it and I learnt my lesson and haven't done it since. Was just explaining that sometimes there are reasons to asking for a particular food and then not eating it, and they aren't doing it to be "naughty".

But then I don't really think toddlers can be naughty, when they are just being toddlers. They learn by pushing boundaries so what else are they supposed to do? They often remember being told not to do things but they just have to do them anyway to see what happens because the lack the impulse control to tell themselves not to do it. It's all part of their development.

Out of interest these children who sound so manic and are trashing your house, are they fed crap food? I hate to see children condemned as naughty when more often than not it's the crap food they are given to eat and it's actually a reaction to the chemicals in it. Similarly autistic children's behaviour can improve if gluten, casein and soy are removed from their diet. It's almost like an allergy to them so when they eat it their body reacts and it affects their behaviour.

I'm totally astonished that some Mum's wouldn't say NO to another child. Good grief - what about community? Surely the world outside the immediate family also has some kind of responsibility for children - whoever their parents are?

ah but minxofmancunia you may be interpreting shyness as sulkiness and rudeness. Not the same thing at all. He will in time get over his shyness if left to his own devices. Making a huge big deal of it and forcing him to speak could be terrible for him.

Trouble is, we all have different children and different tolerances. So you believe talking to adults is very important, and luckily your child is able to do that without a bat of an eyelid. I believe talking to adults is important. DD1 finds this incredibly hard, DD2 happily chats away with them for hours. I cringe when I think of all the times I went on and on at DD1 about this, making her draw further and further into her shell. We're all different and need to have different ways to grow and learn.

That doesn't mean you tolerate bad behaviour, just saying your definition of bad behaviour that you would nip in the bud might be a completely different issue for another child.

minx Not speaking to people is not him being rude - you said yourself he is meek. The kid's just shy. Geez give him a break. Speaking to you would be a massive deal for him if he is so shy.

I'm another one who happily dons the 'wicked/mean/scary mummy' cap What I find interesting is that almost all our friends (who have similar age dcs) regard dh and I as being super strict parents (in a 'mean parent/poor child kind of way). But at the same time continually come out with comments like "its so amazing how nicely your dcs always sit at the table/finish their food/tidy up their toys when you tell them". No self awareness at all....

I'm fairly strict with friends' dcs in my house (my house, my rules ) but dh always feels a bit uncomfortable with that and thinks we need to let the bad behaviour roll if their own parents are actually there .

Anybody else have friends who start making excuses for their dcs as soon as they arrive? You know "he's a bit tired today/i think she's coming down with a cold/they might be teething", and its every time they come round....?

not expecting any shy kid to chat, i was the definition of shyness as a child. just the basics ie saying hello, please and thankyou.

even v shy kids can manage this, i had to, it's just teaching them manners. would never force the poor kid into a conversation obviously.

I don't think sugar is automatically a problem, and actually I worry more about the junk that's in all the "no added sugar" stuff. DS has sweets and cake etc in moderation, as do I, and I see no effect on his behaviour at all (except of course that it makes him happy to share a nice cake or a bit of chocolate as a treat, or have ice cream in a cafe - and he's likely to be in a good mood as a result).

Of course some kids may be especially sensitive but I've heard of studies that suggest the "sugar drives kids crazy" idea is more down to parental expectations and beliefs. See this from the UN and also this.

marineiguana totally agree, it's dangerous to perpetuate this myth imo, gives parents false hope.

SOME children may have an adverse reaction, you know your dcs better than anyone, but it's certainly not the case that this can be applied as a generalisation.

we get parents at work asking about this re adhd/asd (work in camhs) and we have to gently say there isn't yet any evidence to support this theory.

although obviously they can try cutting out certain food groups to see if this helps.

I'm sure someone will come with a linkabout sugar and behaviour to prove me wrong, if it's valid evidence I'll show it to psychiatrists at work. this is just the line we have to take as recommended by best current available evidence.

While people do know their own DC best, I think it's very easy to come up with correlations about what affects your child's behaviour, and be wrong - eg because they've had a tantrum after having chocolate one time, a parent might make a link and then always expect it to hold true - and their expectations then affect the child (eg they will tell them "no you can't have chocolate it makes you misbehave").

I know someone who is always saying their 3yo cannot be expected to do anything he doesn't want to or try unusual food etc because it will "stress" him. As far as I can tell it's complete bollocks and all in her imagination, and as a result the poor kid seems to have a very dull life.

re the Sugar I guess I was meaning everything that comes with it too - many of the sugary foods many kids get fed daily contain all the extra nasties.

And no matter what the research say, you can't beat plain old experience. I'm convinced kids play differently after being loaded up on junk food. Just it's harder to tell with the ones who eat it daily.

Are people thinking about food choices? I mean who exactly is starting their kids day with a bowl of Frosties or Coco Pops?

It can be frustrating - DD recently went through a very fussy stage & was asking for sweet foods all the time and had little appetite for anything else. We stopped the juices (some complaining/upset for a few days) and her appetite and diet improved remarkably.

fillybuster my friend is always saying her ds is tired! Every time???? And my SIL always says we're lucky we can go out for a meal and my dcs sit and eat nicely, whereas hers just don't...I always just answer "Well we've always taken them out and told them how we want them to behave and what will happen if they don't."

My one friend's kids have a normal diet, don't think that's an issue. Not sure about the other friend. I really think the mum is just so soft with them - even attempts at discipline are so half-hearted in kind of a pleading tone, they almost laugh in her face. I've never heard her speak firmly or carry out a threat.

Bessie I have told her kids off, sort of, e.g. her ds was helping himself to cake from my tin up on a shelf and I said "No, you don't help yourself, you need to ask." Then he whined "I want caaaaaake!" to his mum who then asked me "Can he have some?"

Most people say they have no problem telling other kids off, or other parents telling their dcs off, which is interesting and not the response I expected. My dcs are used to my "firm" voice but I have said "no" to kids before and they have promptly burst into tears - oops!

Nappyaddict you say you don't think toddlers can be naughty but these kids are old enough to understand.

The shyness thing is interesting, don't know what I think really, but I remember reading in a Steve Biddulph book that he believes persistent shyness is due to adults paying too much attention to it, more like stubbornness maybe? Certainly people who insist on "drawing the child out" never seem to manage it.

So I won't stop seeing my friends, but thanks to this thread I now have lots of ideas for how to manage the situation better, without having to have a tricky discussion with my friends. Some of you said your dcs don't want to see the other children - we haven't had that yet, they get on ok, possibly because my dcs are very assertive and not really phased by any social situations.

Stirring and fillybuster, I'm totally with you! Another' scary mummy' and happy to be so. The bottom line is, are our children happy? Kids tend to be happier if they know where the boundaries are, IMO. I know that I am considered strict, and I will certainly tell other people's children off in my own home if their behaviour is innapropriate - as I tell off my own. My kids are as challenging and exhausting as anyone else's, but they know the house rules and they are happy, loving and loved. That's what it all comes down to in the end, however you get there. If a child grows up without being taught self-discipline, it seems to me that they are unlikely to make themselves or the people around them happy.

Sorry, stirring, wrote that before yr final post came up, oops! Good luck with it, anyway.

Self-discipline is another interesting one - I seem to remember a lot of talk of that in certain books, the idea being that children should do the right thing because they know it's the right thing, rather than because the parent is telling them to. It's a lovely idea, but haven't had much luck with that myself.

Thanks, Aelfwyn.