When you love your friends but not their kids.

[stirringbeast]

I have 2 very good friends whom I see a lot. They are both wonderful kind and generous ladies.

However I'm finding it harder and harder to spend time with them. It's their kids. Neither of them has much control at all - their children come and trash my house, scoff all the biscuits leaving none for mine, whine for more and more treats when we're out which they eventually give in to, making me look mean for not doing the same, speak rudely to their mothers which my kids are now starting to copy etc etc.

I find I am constantly biting my lip when we're together. The closest I have come to saying anything is telling the children on several occasions that certain behaviours are not acceptable in my house. I got some uncomfortable looks from the mothers on these occasions.

Obviously my children are not angels and certainly have their moments but I believe that the parent should be firmly in charge.

I don't like things to fester away leaving bad atmospheres but I'm not sure I should say anything to my friends about how hard I'm finding it. I think they will get defensive and it will ruin the friendship.

Has anyone experienced this? What did you do?

Ah that's different. You didn't mention kicking people, yanking table cloths and spilling wine before so I thought he was just sat under there minding his own business.

Thanks everyone for responding. Some great ideas here - definitely I need to be more on top of the situation when these friends come over. I'll have to accept that I can't just sit and drink wine coffee with the mums while the kids go on the rampage. It's just a pity as we have many other friends with whom I can do just that without risking serious house-trashing. Glad some people don't think I'm over-reacting about the spoons by the way! With the popcorn I did actually give a dustpan and brush to the eldest boy to supervise the clean up, but then got distracted by something and realised after they left that it hadn't been cleaned up properly at all. I made my dcs do it....

If the friends' dcs came over without their mums I would feel more confident about making them stick to our rules, it's just when the other parent is there you feel you shouldn't interfere. I guess that's a common topic of discussion.

As I said before these issues go very deep - I can see lots of positives in the more relaxed child-led appproach, I just know that for me the bottom line is the children are very important, I will listen to them and consider their wants and needs, do everything I can for them etc, but in the end the parents are in charge and that's that.

And please believe me my dcs are not perfect at all, we have the same struggles as most others.

Nappyaddict I would have made my child come out from under the table I'm afraid. I do look at reasons behind behaviour, but think there has to be a limit on this. I look at intelligent, educated friends and can't believe they can't see their child is running the show and wearing them out in the process and that they don't need to feel guilty about changing that situation.

Also would never offer 5 choices at mealtimes!

at the spoons!!! I would have been livid - mindless vandalism!

I am a pretty strict parent with clear rules that get enforced. BUT also have a ds that doesn't always behave, particularly when in the mix with other kids - so I have to supervise and intervene a lot. So to the person who said "those with disruptive kids aren't doing them any favours", let's remember that kids have their own personalities too and aren't necessarily the direct result of shoddy parenting.

I have a friend who often backs me up and will correct DS - and I really appreciate it - as said previously, it strengthens my argument. Perhaps he realises that xyz really isn't acceptable, and it's not just Mum on another rant.

PS if all my friends disowned me because my DS can be a pain, I would be devastated. But then I don't let him destroy metal things, pull babies' hair and the like.

Most of my friend's don't correct my dcs, I think it's quite a taboo nowadays. I think I would prefer they let me deal with situations when I'm there, but if they have a rule I'm not aware of then I think it's fair enough they tell my dcs.

We've recently got to know an older lady who likes me to go round to hers with the dcs. She has no prolem saying loudly "Oi! If you do that again you're never coming back here!" I was slightly the first time but they do listen to her!

It seems to me it is the most kin, gentle people that have the worst behaved children. I have a couple of friends like whose children are really badly behaved abd the problem seems to be a combination of beliving far too much in the innate goodness of the child and not wanting to be mean or unfair. This is fine when it is just parent and child but not when they are in a social situation with other children and adults, where TBH it can be inconsiderate of other people.

I am not quite sure what I will be like when DS reaches a certain age. I hope I will be a bit strict but I don't think anyone knows until they are actually in the position of needing to discipline a child.

stirringbeast - I am totally with you. I have one (not close) friend whose 4yo DS had to be comforted for 20mins after my DH said (not shouted) "no" to him when he was chasing our chickens - and that was indicative of the whole weekend. I just didn't invite them next time - all the other DC (who didn't know each other beforehand) quickly formed a very cohesive group and although they tried hard to include him they eventually concluded that he was 'strange' - and no, before anyone leaps down my throat, he does not have any SN, he has just been brought up to believe that he is the centre of the universe.

Of course all children misbehave. Mine do it at home, though - not at friends' houses or in public (often).

The only thing I can think of is that you limit what they can do and explain loudly in front of their mothers why - so, for example, 'No, you can't go into the other room/watch TV/take the snack elsewhere because last time the CDs got trashed / popcorn went everywhere'

Ali I think there's something in that. My SIL is the sweetest person ever but her dcs are out of control - she is so scared to say no to them in case they cry which she can't bear. She's never worked out the difference between the truly upset crying and the crying to get their own way. Consequently she's running between the 3 of them trying to keep them permanently happy and has no control over her own life at all.

But like you said Ali, it's whether you belive children are always trying to tell you something by their behaviour, or whether sometimes they are just manipulating the hell out of you.

Personally I would rather go through the tantrums when they're little and let them know who is in charge and which boundaries they may not cross.

I had a friend who let her kids trash my house yet when we went there she shouted at mine for doing anything and hoovered up as soon as they had eaten a biscuit! I got fed up and dropped her. I don't mind abit of mess/toys etc but she let her kid wee on the floor and go in the bedrooms etc, I would never let my kids do that at people's houses.

Don't worry stealth, I'm going to have name cards on their places at the table next time, maybe with pieces of popcorn counted out equally into bowls beforehand. maybe also superglue under the bowls....maybe I'm getting carried away now.

fillybuster - put a high bolt on your ds' bedroom door and tell the visiting child that it's out of bounds.

Then buy a few cheap toys - maybe charity shop - that aren't ds' favourites so the visiting child can trash play with those.

Maybe I'm a meanie, but once my DCs got to about 6, they were told they were responsible for the cleanup if there was a mess after friends came to play. They had the choice of keeping the friends' messy tendencies in check, making or persuading the friends to help clean up, or clean it all themselves afterwards.

Before age 6 or 7, you really have to supervise and lay down the law; your friends will get used to the fact that you're the scary mum and will soon warn their DCs to watch their ps and qs in your house. You can do it with a smile and a firm voice, and you can also (at least I can at this point after learning my lesson) get right down to face level and tell them what they should and should not do in your house, even with their parents there. There's no need for shouting, just a calm, cheerful and firm voice and direct eye contact. Let the mums make of it what they will, but I haven't lost friends over it.

I have physically picked up children who wouldn't stay in their seats in restaurants and walked out with them, also children who wouldn't stop screaming or whining (mine obv!) -- nobody else went out for an evening to a restaurant to listen to a child of mine carrying on. DCs didn't try it again. Anyone who was under a table and not bothering others could stay there as long as they didn't eat food from the floor.

Bedtime for mine has always been 9 o'clock (neighbour's child is always in bed asleep at 7 and they wonder why she's up at 5...)

me too, mathanxiety (carrying disruptive child out of restaurant) - after a couple of trips to the car park my DC have heeded hissed whispered warnings.

DS's friends all think I am a scary Mummy, I think, but they still want to come and play so it can't be that bad

Uriel - nice idea and maybe one for when ds is a bit bigger. The trouble is that he's the eldest and all the smaller kids stuff is downstairs (where they play) and his own 'older boys' toys (!!) are in his room. The friends son knows this and invites himself upstairs pretty much as soon as he arrives...ds is a gentle sort who then spends the next couple of hours trying to control the situation. I never need to supervise ds and his friends normally, but its got really tricky with this one child (and ds wants to get away and play on his own in his room, not with this kid who hits him and breaks his stuff!).

Yes I fear I am also known as scary mummy....

I can totally sympathise with your situation. My dns are the same age as my girls and are very fond of each other. We only see them about 3 or 4 times a year and now they are 10 and 8 it is not so much of an issue BUT when they were small it was soooo difficult.

I do expect my dds to behave and respect other people's property. I expect them to behave and sit at the table in restaurants. My sil thought it perfectly acceptable for her two to run around the table and disturb other diners. I hated it and was made to feel like a victorian mother for insisting mine sat still. I found it so embarassing. Sil was of the opinion that everyone else should accomodate her DDs and their whims!

Now they are older it is less of an issue but my DD1 thinks her auntie is so kind as Dn is allowed a mobile, a laptop, a tv in her room, her ears pierced etc. while I will not allow any of this.

The main issue has always been how they are allowed to behave when we are out together but I stick to my guns. Would have been easier if she had been a friend not a relation as I could have stopped seeing her or met outside the house!

Nothing wrong with that, stirringbeast . People will love you for yourself or gradually fade out of your life; everyone doesn't have to like you -- you don't have to sacrifice things that are important to you for the sake of having a few people over for a chat every now and then.

I had a friend who lived up our road and just like you are saying her ds took all the biscs. climbed on the table etc in my house. he also used to pull my friends hair so hard and she never stopped him doing any of these things. Is n't it funny how it makes you question yr own bringing up of yr own children? I just had to stop seeing her and her ds her dd was different though, much more controlled.
I saw her ds a few years ago he is now obese;i think that all children need boundaries clearly spelt out to them don't you?

Sounds like a pain. It is always tricky with other children, even the most beautifully behaved children get tired and fed-up of sharing and playing 'nicely'.
Do the other mums offer to help tidy a bit before they go?
I am wondering if you could have a rule of one or two things out to play and then ask all of the children to tidy up whatever they aren't playing with before they get another toy.
Have a race or make it silly or something.
If you give the children 'yucky' snacks, like breadsticks or fruit I bet the guests wouldn't eat so much.
Personally, I am happy to 'guide' other children when I think things are getting a bit over the top. If the other mums don't do anything, it is kind of up to you to 'help' them to understand what you do at your house.
The other mums will either let you get on with it, back you up or go home at the very worst.
Are there any free places you could go indoors like museums, libriaries new parks nearby where you could meet with the children, so they are occupied?

I don't mind being known as "scary mom" if it means my DS will grow up respectful of an polite to others. I'll just go get fitted for my witch hat now...

I'm really working on not judging others if their children's behavior does not affect me in any way. Last night I was facebook chatting with my aunt and she was saying what a tough time she was having putting her DD down for bed. (It was almost 10p.m. at this point.) She continued by saying that the dentist had told them they absolutely HAD to get rid of their DD's night time bottle of milk. Yes, a baby bottle. My cousin's 4 years old. I was further when 20 minutes later she said "oh, she was crying so pitifully that we gave in and gave her 2 oz...I think gradual is the way to go here." I managed to be supportive while thinking in the back of my mind "FOR THE LOVE OF ALL THAT IS HOLY WILL YOU STICK TO 'NO' WITH THAT CHILD FOR ONCE IN YOUR LIFE!!!" But you know, not my kid, not my business.

However in the OP's case it is her house they are wrecking so I agree, either see them in a neutral place or hang out with friends minus kids.

Hell is other people's children.

Anybody said that yet? Very very common to love the friends but loathe their children. The reverse is rather less usual ime.

It's hard to see a child put at risk of having to have major dental work done, though. Not pleasant for the child and very expensive for the parent.