When you love your friends but not their kids.

[stirringbeast]

I have 2 very good friends whom I see a lot. They are both wonderful kind and generous ladies.

However I'm finding it harder and harder to spend time with them. It's their kids. Neither of them has much control at all - their children come and trash my house, scoff all the biscuits leaving none for mine, whine for more and more treats when we're out which they eventually give in to, making me look mean for not doing the same, speak rudely to their mothers which my kids are now starting to copy etc etc.

I find I am constantly biting my lip when we're together. The closest I have come to saying anything is telling the children on several occasions that certain behaviours are not acceptable in my house. I got some uncomfortable looks from the mothers on these occasions.

Obviously my children are not angels and certainly have their moments but I believe that the parent should be firmly in charge.

I don't like things to fester away leaving bad atmospheres but I'm not sure I should say anything to my friends about how hard I'm finding it. I think they will get defensive and it will ruin the friendship.

Has anyone experienced this? What did you do?

Yank- I'm always known to be "scary" by my childrens' friends, not least because I have taught a lot of them in the past and tend to stay in teacher mode even when out of the classroom. Even my uncontrollable spirited 5 yr old nephew behaves very well for me. I'm not mean to them, just strict but fair and I speak to them like equals as far is possible- ie I am polite and don't talk down to them.

Suits me just fine that they behave well for me and don't give me any headaches... Frankly I'm not there to be their friend, although a lot of them are lovely children (especially from one particular school).

This is a great thread. I really agree with Stirringbeast on this one.

I had to let a few friendships drift because of this problem and I also stopped playdates at my house for a while altogether. (N.B. My children were quite happy about this- they were just glad that their toys weren't broken, they weren't being hit(!) by other children, the house wasn't trashed and we didn't need to clear up post-playdate bombsites) I have hooked back up with some of these friends now our DC's are in school which is great.

I also found that some 'friends' were beginning to treat my house as an informal soft play zone- to the extent that their kids ran riot whilst my own sat looking bewildered- and I got fed up with never getting a return invite.

The problem is that we start off with friends while our DC's are immobile babies and gradually they get more active and wild- and then roam the house. I cannot believe some of the behaviour that is tolerated by some other mums. I would be perpetually exhausted if I had to live with that level of chaos.

I'm sorry but we've all learned social conventions like sitting nicely in restaurants, not being greedy at other peoples houses (as much as I'd love to eat 6 of the chocolate biscuits my friend had in the tin when I went to her house yesterday I knew it would be rude!), paying attention etc etc at an early age. If you delay teaching your DC's these things when they are 2 or 3 you are only going to give yourself (and your DC's) a lot of pain later on.

My closest mummy friend has DD, I have DS, they both the same age, 4 in April. My friend is very strict with DD in terms of her doing what told, and while I am fairly strict, can be a bit slack, which gets tut=tutted a lot. However. the DD is the bossiest little girl I have ever met, incredibly controlling, will try to forbid me drinking tea out of the cup her mother has just given me, ban me from using the upstairs loo. And with DS she can be downright mean, taking away every thing he picks up, blocking his every move, winding him up. Often he looks at her in that exasperated way men have and the other day,b when the door was open, he just said "I'm goin home" and stomped off. Normally the door is shut and he just thumps her. And she screams. And he gets told off. And she joins in. And he's trying to say that she startedf it, but hitting is wrong and so he gets told off whiler she never does. It's a nightmare. my son doesn't want to go round there and is horrible when we do. My friend thinks he's horrible to her DD, without seeing that in fact DD sets it up every time. They are going to be going to school together and I'm beginning to dread it. I'm cross with my friend for not seeing that her DD is as big a monster as mine can be, feel we need to talk about it - but it's critisising her DD and allowing her to do the same to me. But don't want to lose my friend!

Was at the checkout yesterday and a child aged about 7 behind me was whinning away at her dad- not sure what about, I had tuned out.

As I was putting my purse away and they got up to the till, the checkout lady (an older lady) said 'Still whinning then?'

We all (including child) pause and look at her

Checkout lady 'I remember you from yesterday, you were whinning then. You finished now?'

Cue mute child and grinning dad saying 'See- I told you'.

The whole episode surprised me, that the checkout lady felt able to say it, that the dad thought it was funny and looked relieved she had helped. Made me think about how isolated we are now in our child rearing and how little we feel we can all parent communally.

I so wish we lived in a society that doesn't turn savagely on people who take an interest in children in that way, Cathpot (because that's what that lady was doing really). She might just as easily have been shrieked at by parent or carer, or reported to her manager and given a warning or worse. Good on her, really. No harm done, and the child realised that other people and not just Dad are affected by her behaviour and care enough to want to change it. Also dealing with her like that puts responsibility for her behaviour back with her, the person most able to change it.

Reading vikt's post reminded me that I forgot to say that at some point we go through a realisation that our loyalty is owed to our children not to our friends. If your preschool children are being upset etc in their own homes then you have to stop exposing them to that situation. It's one thing to be upset when out (nursery/toddler group etc) but in the sanctuary of their own home (and in a situation where you as mum or dad feel embarrassed to intervene) is another. If you meet in a cafe or where-ever you can say 'oh well it's time for us to go' rather than thinking 'oh god when will they leave' at home.

Similarly it's part of life for your DC's to have conflicts with friends that they themselves have chosen when they are older- but when they are preschoolers you can't expect them to cheerfully get along with other preschoolers who behave very differently or have very low standards of behaviour set for them by their parents.

I have started having playdates again with a few friends whose children get on with my son- they aren't always the people I 'click' with the best but the kids have a nice play and we have a civilised chat.

Mum's meals (a group of us did a 'bring a dish' tapas evening recently and we all really enjoyed being together without the kids and having a cheap night!) are the best solution to keeping a friendship going where your parenting attitudes and/or children's personalities conflict.

interesting story cathpot - i think it depends a lot on how something like that is done. if the tone and body language are helpful/collaborative indicating "just a normal - whiny -kid - we've all been there, maybe me saying something will help snap her out of it" reasonable people won';t mind (some will...some always will). it's when people feel criticised that they get all defensive. personally i too wish we were all a bit more helpful - and accepting of help - with each other.

I used to have a friend with awful children. I won't go into all the details but a lot of what has already been mentioned about house thrashing, whining, rudeness etc.

Anyway, when her eldest was 7, she came over, just with the eldest.
I had a tin of almost full celebrations and brought them out, put them on the table for us to have some.
In chatting I mentioned the Caramels were my favourite, not meaning much by it. The DD went through the tin, took out every single caramel and put them by her and proceeded to eat every one.
The Mum said nothing.

I never invited them again and let the friendship go.

It wasn't so much about the sweets, but the rudeness and the fact that the Mum said nothing and just allowed it, and this was after years of awful behaviour from her 3 DC.

Cathpot, I completely agree with you. I find it really hard telling other people's children off when they are misbehaving. I would be so afraid that the mother would have a go at me for doing it (I am not good at direct confrontation). If I knew it was acceptable to tell other people's children I would feel less anxious about doing it. Am I weak or normal?

It runs through evrything now, never feeling able to tell a child off. I was delighted recently when a neighbour 'confessed' to me that she's told my son off for whacking a flowers along the street. It teaches them that they're part of a community. We live with DS's grandparents, and that's part of my problem with his behavior - as far as they're concerned he can do no wrong. Last week I begged granny to start stopping him from jumping on her £800 electric chair, and she was sooooo reluctant to do that. She tried it yesterday, he got off, but sdhe looked not happy!

Anyway, with regard to friends and appalling children, except my own close friend, it's obvious - you let it go, you meet in the park, you resist them coming to your house.

I don't think anyone enjoys it or feels completely ok doing it, AliGrylls. But with me, it came to the point where I just didn't want to have to spend two hours after a get-together picking up and fixing toys, cleaning up spilled food and drinks from all over the house, putting taped-together books back on shelves, cleaning toothpaste off walls, resenting my children for their friends' behaviour, resenting my friends for their lack of consideration for me, and I started thinking nothing was going to change unless I changed it. I could stop resenting others or put my foot down; I came to the conclusion I had nobody to blame, really, but myself, if I let people behave in my house as if they were a troop of chimps.

Tried out my smoothest, firmest voice, with a hint of surprise in my tone, used the phrases "We don't do that here, sweetheart", and "Nobody talks to me like that here, sweetie", and was emboldened by getting away with it . Children take things like that at face value. Parents may squirm a bit, but they have to acknowledge that at least you've been kind and haven't screamed at or embarrassed their offspring.

aligryllis i hate doing it too but I had to do it, today in fact. Went to ee az friend with my dd to see her and herdd dds are both 3, another woman was there with her 3 old dd too. Friends dd slid the bracelet my dd was waering from her arm, stuck her hand in my dds coat pocket and took whatever little toy was in there out and said " me and x are playing with these now...". I told her in no uncertain terms that they were my dds things she should have asked if she could borrow them and it was unkind to leave my dd out. Dd just said "it's ok Mummy I bought them to share" whilst looking gutted, nearly broke my heart .

This particulra little girl is spilt beyond beleif, and it's a shame but it's got to the stage where it's difficult seeing my frind because her dd is so unbeleievably sploilt.

hardly ever have other dcs round here, I hate it, find it really stressful and just can't be doing with other peoples kids in our home so we go to a park/play centre/cafe instead. takes a lot of the stress out of it.

myhandslooksoold I entirely agree with you re loyalties. That was really brought home to me when a friendship ended last year. The friend's DD had for a few play dates been shouting at my DD and ordering her about. I tackled it as much as I could but sometimes the girls were playing upstairs. The mother's response was very passive save to say "I think she does that cos I shout at her like that". I hadn't seen her do that in front of me but I knew she often found life pretty hard (although not for major reasons, just day to day life). On our last play date with them my DD cried on the way home because of the shouting and I felt so annoyed with myself for not stopping the play dates and putting my DD first instead of trying to support a friend who was going through a difficult time. In any event the friend then started a part time job (half a day a week, I work full time..) and said because of that she wouldn't have time to see us for a while and I realised that it wasn't a friendship really worth having anyway. She later said I had "judged" her for being stressed about work! And this was after I had been biting my tongue not to hurt her feelings!

I have found that some friends without children have drifted away, but my closest friends entirely understand that once you have a child priorities change. Next time I am going to put DD first immediately and take the view that healthy friendships involve respect for each other, whether adult or child.

One of my very good friends is like this with her dc and turn a blind eye to their rudeness and bad behaviour. However, as I liked said friend, as she is one of the sweetest and nicest people I know, I chose to see her without her dc. She admitted later that she couldn't control her dc and didn't know how to. She told me that she felt paralysed and embarrassed when her dc misbehave as even when she tried to tell to reprimand them, they never took any notice of her anyway - causing her to be more embarrassed in front of people. Her way of coping was to ignore it all and hope for the best. She also told me that she actually prefered if other people did pull her dc over their bad behaviour as her dc were more likely to listen to them rather than her.

Maybe your friend could be the same situation? If you genuinely like your friends don't be too hasty to cut ties with them just because you don't agree with their parenting styles; especially if it is feasible to continue the friendship without having their children your house.

vikt - I read your comments with interest about your closest friend and her DD, and feel a great deal of empathy for your situation.

I found it very difficult when I had my first DS as all the people I was naturally friendly with had DDs. Now while I am sure for some it works, my experience was one of frustration, disappointment and sadness. In my case, my DS played very differently from the DDs ( as boys generally do ) and I found myself constantly berating my little boy whilst the angelic DDs couldn't put a foot wrong. Its only since I have had my DD that I have realised how it really works.

I have found - with great sadness - that there is a certain breed of mother with daughters only that must be avoided at all costs if you have an exuberant boy. Its just not worth the heartache and your child must come first.

I try to give the parents the 'space' to stop their children doing whatever is unacceptable, but if they don't, I will happily tell them myself.

CD's - I'd pick them up myself and say 'Please don't take them out of the boxes, they get scratched. The toys are in the other room, shall we find something you'd like to play with'.

Spoons - FFS, what were they doing going through the kitchen stuff??

Rudeness - 'Who do you think you are talking to? If you want something, then ask nicely'

Bullying - 'Do not do that, would you like it if I did it to you?'

All that kind of thing, if the parents wont parent, then someone has to! Of course it's not always 'comfortable' to do so, but it's essential and if you lose friends over it, then so be it - they are probably not the kind of people you will have a lifelong friendship with anyway - reasons/seasons.

Stirringbeast I also think you're being completely reasonable. Like you I have a DS (aged 4) who is far from perfectly behaved - he does answer back, whine and do things he shouldn't - but I always pull him up on it (it just takes them a long time to learn I think!) and follow thorugh with consequences (he will not get what he wants unless he asks politely, we will leave if he can't behave etc.). And there are certain behaviours he knows are just not on. He would never just wantonly trash someone else's toys, hit other kids or make a massive mess.

I realise all kids are different and not all behaviour is down to parenting, but I just can't understand why you wouldn't make it clear to your DC what is and is not OK behaviour. In fact I think it's a cruelty to let them grow up thinking it's OK to treat other people like dirt - how will that serve them well?

Some of the things certain friends' kids get away with just shock me to the core. I've had one friend's DS violently attack my DS right in front of her. All she did was comfort her own DS when he then proceeded to burst into tears because I looked at him disapprovingly (I didn't even tell him off, though after that incident I resolved to stop being such a wuss). I also know several small children who basically decide everything that happens in their families because no one dare tell them no or make them do something they don't fancy doing.

You said "- she is so scared to say no to them in case they cry which she can't bear" - I think that's true of a lot of parents and they have got really confused about what their role is. It's great that in the main we have stopped beating kids and treating them abusively as punishment, which used to be common. But, refusing a child's request or stopping them from doing something that hurts someone else, yes even if they cry, isn't abusive or damaging. Small children cry when they don't get their own way - hold the front page. It's part of them learning how the world works.

Also I think that very permissive parents often have this idea that if you're "strict" and say no, you must be a nasty harpy who makes their kids' lives a misery. Actually I think if you have firm boundaries and your kids have a basic idea how to behave, they're often happier because there's less tension and constant bad behaviour and destructiveness and screaming, and you can just get on more easily and have a laugh together.

Yes, I think they feel secure, and that goes a long way to keeping them truly happy, relaxed and carefree, and able to play peacefully together. If nobody seems to be in charge, then they have to sort out that question among themselves and it never works out well.

I agree with kids feeling more secure with boundaries. My SIL works full time. Nothing wrong with that of course, but she feels very guilty for her choice and so when she's home, she's thisclose to my niece and nephew all the time. And since she feels like she doesn't see them much, she hates to hear them cry AT ALL. Everything she does or decides, she asks her 4 year old, "is that okay, buddy?" I mean, why? What if he says no? She asked my DS that once and I said as nicely as possible, "It doesn't matter if it's ok, DS, you need to do as your Auntie is asking." She was that I would say that to my son. The kicker of it is, her DS is miserable. He's always angry with someone, usually for not paying attention to him. He always wants to be first and best. (At my DS' birthday party he had a meltdown when I asked him nicely to stop opening up DS' presents. He couldn't stand that the day wasn't about him.) He cries and whines constantly, and frankly, no one likes him much except his mother. We love him of course, but...

Metrobaby made a good point - it's really embarassing when your child doesn't do what you ask them to do in public. The problem is there's no point in telling children off when they're misbehaving, because they're all wound up and led by the attention they're getting.

Much easier to tackle the problem one-on-one at home.

Wow, came back to so many more responses!

Just wanted to say this has made me feel much more confident about the parenting style I instinctively felt was right. I think there's a lot of reading matter against the more "traditional" parenting at the moment. I don't have to read it, but I like to see all points of view. Anyway some of those books tend to make you feel your kids won't feel loved if you stop too many behaviours, impose punishments etc.

Someone made a good point about whether the behaviour is affecting you/your dcs or not. I think that's a great thing to keep in mind. I too have friends whose dcs don't sleep or whatever and it isn't any of my business unless they ask for my advice.

Whoever asked about the spoons - I think it probably happened when they were setting the table. My dcs usually do that so I guess the others were "helping".

LeQueen when you took your nephews out of the restaurant, were the parents there? Seriously impressed if they were!

I loooove being known as scary mummy [evil laugh]!! How sick am I?

Some people are just naturally gifted in that way.

I think I'm a bit of a scary mum too! My mum was apparently terrifying to my friends. Frankly I'm not surprised. It's crap having your house wrecked by other people's children. It's rubbish being ruded by a child of nearly 8.

I do wonder what goes on behind closed doors, but then lots of things went on behind closed doors when I was small that should not have gone on.

I don't see a problem with telling children off, and I expect other parents to draw the line with my chidren. People have boundaries, and children need to learn to respect that these can be different.