When you love your friends but not their kids.

[stirringbeast]

I have 2 very good friends whom I see a lot. They are both wonderful kind and generous ladies.

However I'm finding it harder and harder to spend time with them. It's their kids. Neither of them has much control at all - their children come and trash my house, scoff all the biscuits leaving none for mine, whine for more and more treats when we're out which they eventually give in to, making me look mean for not doing the same, speak rudely to their mothers which my kids are now starting to copy etc etc.

I find I am constantly biting my lip when we're together. The closest I have come to saying anything is telling the children on several occasions that certain behaviours are not acceptable in my house. I got some uncomfortable looks from the mothers on these occasions.

Obviously my children are not angels and certainly have their moments but I believe that the parent should be firmly in charge.

I don't like things to fester away leaving bad atmospheres but I'm not sure I should say anything to my friends about how hard I'm finding it. I think they will get defensive and it will ruin the friendship.

Has anyone experienced this? What did you do?

Sugar - DS once got holdof a bottle of Fanta. Bonkers for about best partr of 2hrs. But biscuit, bit of cake, seems ok in moderation. Fizzy drinks = never again until he's a lot older, maybe 18.....

vikt - that suggests to me the problem wasn't the sugar then, but more likely one (or more) of the colours, flavours or preservatives in fanta.

Indeed!

I have had a couple of bad experiences in the past: friends I love with kids I really cannot stand. And more to the point, neither can my dd. They raid my fridge, break toys....I am not scared to tell off any kids in my house (but they still do it!)

In the end I have just tried to see my friends without their kids, at least until the kids get a little older and a bit more responsible/polite perhaps.

RE: FANTA: my dd had it for the first time when she was 7 - her pupils dilated, she kept falling off her chair....honestly I thought she'd done ecstasy or LSD or something!! She's fine even with Coke (the drinkable kind!) but there's something about Fanta that drives her insane!

this thread is sending me further into my drepressive hole

Having just read more of this thread, I am getting more wound up.

The teaspoon issue is HUGE! How dare those children just wantonly destroy other people's property...it is so disrespetful. Sure, they're only teaspoons...but it is the sentiment behind the destruction that is important.

How many more years before they think they can attack another human being (a la Doncaster kids) in the same way? Lack of respect must be remedied early on, or there are horrible consequences. And I am not a horribly uptight mum, promise!

I don't believe in forcing shy kids to talk to people if they don't want to. It certainly appears to be counter productive ime.

I was talking more about processed stuff and additivies than sugar, which have been proved to cause bad behaviour, hyperactivity, ADHD etc.

I made my post about toddlers because the OP mentioned some of the children were as young as 2.

I will not make my DS do anything he doesn't want to do if it is going to upset him. If I don't want to do something I don't do it, so I don't force DS to. (School, homework, anything medical, anything to do with safety, not hurting others, not being rude etc excluded from this obviously)

Also my DS didn't sleep well until a couple of months ago, was teething constantly until he was 2.6 and has been almost constantly ill for the last 3 years of his life. So everyone time we went anywhere he would be tired, teething or ill and yes I probably would mention it. We now mostly see friends in the afternoon or after nursery, again when he is very tired. People don't just say this stuff for the sake of it - it probably is true.

Nappyaddict I agree with you about forcing shy children to talk to anyone -- usually they'll get over it enough to even manage a brief conversation as they get older (such has been my experience anyway). Mine have always had sports in their lives and have had to get used to coaches, other DCs' parents, and other children every season. The coaches they have had have been good people who found something positive to say about their performance or skills and have encouraged a bit of friendly banter, which was never forthcoming initially from any of them, but they are all able to get a word or two of small talk out now.

I think being comfortable in your own skin is important for a child; it's important for a shy child not to see aspects of your personality, such as shyness, classed as negative or unacceptable or in some way a personal failing. Behaviour or speech that is destructive or hurtful or harmful to others is a different matter of course. But to classify shyness in the presence of adults as rudeness is really in the eye of the beholder, imo. Respect and boundaries cut both ways.

There's a difference between forcing and encouraging, though. And I feel it's important that all children know they are basically ok in their parents' books. With my own quiet and reluctant to chat DCs, I have never used the term 'shy' because I think it's not a good idea to label children, even with something complimentary. First person to use the word 'shy' for any of my DCs was exMIL who tends to make personal remarks about people (rather rude, imo) an unhappy day for oldest DD (who had blushed in response to a remark about her red hair), who was thus singled out in quite a large group, by her grandmother, using her usual loud voice, and who had everyone's attention, as being 'shy'. The perfect storm, you might say.

DD and I talked about the incident and I assured her she was ok in my books, she had a right to her feelings, everyone feels the same way when grandma puts them on the spot like that, not just her. I have taken the approach of reassuring my DCs that they can smile and make eye contact, no need for clever repartee if they don't feel they can do it, need to say please and thank you though, and there's nothing wrong with them for feeling uncomfortable talking with adults.

I have three shy DCs and two who are more outgoing, only one of whom has what most adults would consider a charming manner, though the younger of this pair is getting there. The oldest two (who are among the shy ones) are fine now, though quiet, through acceptance and encouragement and exposure to situations where they didn't have me or my skirts to hide behind, especially through school and in sports; the other shy one is really, really shy, moreso than the oldest two, but is gradually coming out of her shell -- if she was my oldest I would have possibly sought professional help with her, but I'm confident having seen the others come along that she will be ok, and will feel ok about herself, which is what I'm aiming for really. The other two, who are social butterflies, went through patches when they lived in their own little world or had insecurities to deal with too; nothing is ever really in a straight line with children.

I was treated probably the opposite of LeQueen's SIL by my well-meaning parents and hated the feeling there was something 'wrong' with me because my instincts were constantly being overridden and overruled. Elocution lessons were a nightmare, ditto elocution exams (went to that sort of school....), but I think a bit of empathy might have gone a long way. Yes, I got over it, but I wouldn't go the same route with my DCs. I would put them front and centre and not the expectations of others.

I have this problem.

I have a good friend who is a very kind, helpful woman.

I've known her for some years now and she is stuck in an unhappy marriage where her DH will not help with any housework or discipline the kids. So I do feel sorry for her.

I have like other people on this forum, leanred to manage her kids appalling behaviour.

I ration biscuits to on each and have given them strict guidelines of my behaviour expectations. Otherwise they are not welcome.

My friend does not seem to mind that I am more strict with her kids than she is and if they disrespect me or my property I will ask them to leave. She is not upset by this as she knows her children are difficult and this is easier than open confrontation.

I decided that her friendship was more important than her kids behaviour. Actually, over time her children have become much more respectful and don't trash the place as much.

I am so depressed reading this thread. I wonder how many of my friends will drop me because they don't like the way DS1 behaves. I do pretty much everything that you are all mentioning with regard to discipline and I still have one of the worst behaved childrn I know. I have to choose my battles, because otherwise everything would be a battle. I keep biscuits out of reach, because he would help himself otherwise - I only let him have two at most. I don't think he would break other children's toys or break teaspoons (he hasn't so far), but he doesn't take any notice when I say no. I have posted before about how he still doesn't seem to get cause and effect ("if you do that, mummy will do this"). He's not quite 3.5 and I keep hoping that he'll grow out of it

With regard to shyness encouragement is fine. If someone says to DS "What's your name?" I will say tell the lady your name." If he doesn't want to that's the end of the matter. I encouraged him but I will not force him.

chickbean - sounds like you're doing a great job, don't beat yourself up, change your frame of reference - get some friends with kids that behave worse than yours. Perhaps stirringbeast can give you her teaspoon friend's number. And avoid smug mothers with angelic daughters.

Keep at it - he will grow out of it.

But chickbean I wouldn't have such a problem with that myself, honestly. As I said below somewhere, I think children can take a long time to learn, and not all behaviour is down to parenting. But you do tell him and you do limit him - even if it has little effect so far! (but he's still tiny) What really gets me (and I think a lot of people on this thread) is when a friend's DC behaves appallingly and the mum is there and she ignores it or just weakly bleats "oh darling, that's not nice" etc and lets it carry on. You can't be sure a child will never misbehave - what matters is that you step in.

This thread is sooo useful; I have told my friend's dd off for merciless verbal bullying(age 5). She's a very controlling child who don't seem to have a conscience about the trouble she causes? I like another friend's dd who gets over exhuberant and very physical (punches kicks) but she is also generous to a fault, and you can see the frustration in her when she attacks (usually her mother, who is lovely). She also, when she calms down, expresses remorse, and has learnt to verbalise what triggers her outbursts. Mum no. 2 is visibly always responsive to her child's behaviour. Mum no. 1 describes her child as shy and will condone any behaviour to keep her happy/always tells her that she is the best at any activity. So - she sulks when she's not in control of the other children/adults. My dd can put on her parts. What works for her is not to tell her off in front of her friends, but to take her aside and tell her off. She normally resumes play a reformed child. Telling her off in front of her friends, or being over praiseworthy of her friends doesn't work. The latter because there is only one thing that she won't share - my love for her!

I would so like to tell mum no. 1 what I really think. But I won't, because I may be completely wrong and it would be so damaging; which is why it's so useful to read posts here, and then to vent . Some mum's seem to instinctively know that the key to their children's popularity is that they are team players. I think there's real value in that kind of forward thinking, and encouraging what will be lifeskills in the future

However you manage the situation think twice before saying anything directly eg. "i hope you don't mind me saying this but..."

A local mother very gently tackled another about her parenting, a year down the line we are all still caught in the cross fire. We like the parents as people but the ds is clearly hard work and exhausting, we have been supportive locally, but it get's to a point when you have to put your children first. These early years are so short, I don't want to spend them with people I'm uncomfortable with. I enjoy spending time with parents who praise each others kids for good behaviour and gently remind them of the day-to -day rules so that we can all have a nice time.
The woman who was brave enough to tackle it directly has been scapegoated, blamed for everything by the "spirited" child mum and is made to feel guilty about the little sod not being invited to b'day parties etc.

We know it's her ds and of course she is protective but a year down the line the kid has not grown up and is still the badly behaved apple of his mother's eye.

Example recently the ds(4) pushed a two year old at the top of the stairs witnessed by the two mothers and instead of wading in with lecture about playing & pushing near stairs just said boldly "it was clearly an accident" and turned away

Such a long thread, clearly hitting a spot not talked loudly about in real life.

Chickbean - ds'll grow out of it because he'll start to see the sense of what you say and do. I'm learning that it's a gradual thing, and 3.5 is still young. It's the fact that you pick up on poor behaviour, consistently, that's important. If you were my friend I'd respect you for trying, not drop you. And support you too. And point out the positive things that he does or is gifted at (my theory is pointing out the positive has to happen to balance out the focus on the negative).

It's the mums who turn a blind eye to their children's behaviour, or come up with a weak excuse, who are the one's that create the dichotomy of loyalty and test the limits of friendship. Also, the fact that you do all the correct correcting things now implies that actually you have higher standards of expected behaviour. So I'm actually a bit envious of your courage and stamina too!

" really cannot be bothered with anyone else's derisive opinion "

best turn away now then LeQueen

chickbean you are so right -this thread is depressing. I have been watching it since the beginning waiting for some articulate being to come on and be gobsmacked at the righteous indignation of some of the posters. Some of the things that have been posted IMO are just awful.