Daughter recalls being shouted at as traumatic and I feel heartbroken

[ByGreatBeaker]

I overheard my 15 year old chatting to her sister (13) last night. She was relating how when she was 4 she was being noisy in the car and was shouted at to be quiet, and then a few days later our car broke down and she was freaking out but trying not to show it because she got shouted at that time before. She was talking as though this was hugely traumatic and like we're bad parents. My heart is broken by this because I have tried so hard to be a good mum, to not shout (although no one is perfect), not hit etc. My childhood was abusive, in every way, and to hear my daughter speak as though she has endured a traumatic childhood hurts so much. I haven't said anything to her about what I heard because I worry she'll feel she can't talk about her feelings without me listening round every corner, but at the same time I feel like something needs to be said. I don't really know how to deal with this, talk to her, or leave it. Any suggestions? She's autistic and has ADHD and has an insanely good memory, remembers stuff from when she was 2 or possibly even younger.

the ironic thing is that, for survival reasons, kids brains aren't generally developed enough to be able to comprehend genuine trauma as trauma - that fun generally gets saved for adulthood, it that comprehension ever arrives at all

if a genuinely traumatised child were able to actually comprehend they were being traumatised at the time and all of what that meant for them re. caregivers and safety etc, their nervous system would simply not cope with the realisation

It's not a big deal.

Honestly, she doesn't need to be stewing on something that happened years ago. Did she sound upset as she was telling this story? Or just repeating it matter of factly?

I'm sure we all remember little incidents from our childhood when our parents were less than perfect - I know I do - but that doesn't make you a bad mum.

I agree. When I was at primary school (can't remember exact age) we were watching TV one winter's evening with my parents. We lived in the countryside - no near neighbours. There was a knock and a kerfuffle at the door, which was a bit alarming in itself. My dad answered the door and two blood-spattered young lads almost fell into the house. They'd crashed their car down the road.

My parents cleaned them up a bit and phoned for an ambulance, but they made a horrible mess everywhere. I remember seeing all this blood on the floor and all over the bathroom. It was extremely frightening for an 8/9 year old, in their own home, but I wouldn't say it was traumatic. I knew my parents were there, I knew these boys weren't going to harm us, and my mum stayed with us while we went to sleep.

The term 'trauma' should be kept for really terrible events and experiences.

Wait till she is 30 and STILL banging on about the injustice of her childhood. even when her siblings tell her she is talking rubbish.

Knock it on the head now if you can or she will not shut up about it

How did people cope, back in the day, when autism, ADHD and all of these other syndromes weren’t recognised? I suspect they became more resilient, rather than wallowing in it, and learned to cope - eg Mum shouts if I play up in the car, so if I don’t play up in the car, she won’t shout.

DD2 has a “memory” of me smacking her - I never smacked her, but I recall the incident. She was told she couldn’t do something she wanted to do, and screamed, shouted, spat at me and her sister, pulled down her pyjama bottoms and mooned at us. She was about three. She was on the stairs, so potential for accident, and I picked her up, kicking and screaming, and took her to the sitting room to calm down. Her “memory” is of me smacking her on the stairs, and she won’t budge on this, despite me and her father saying that it didn’t happen!

That’s terrible advice!!! That’s really invalidating and dismissive.

That is not trauma

It's an overused phrase that teenagers particularly feel they need to have experienced to be validated. Obviously lots of people DO experience real trauma, but loads don't.

My DD (now 21) once told us (when she was about 16) that she had traumatic memories of being shut in her room. It literally never happened. When I asked her for details about it, she finally decided that maybe she wasn't 'shut in her room' but had stomped into her room, slammed the door and sulked (for the 100th time that week). She then felt peeved that we didn't rush in asking her what was wrong. In her head, she had turned her outrage at not being immediately attended to, to trauma at being shut in her room.

I would file it away as a non-event.

i won’t pretend to understand how your DD’s diagnosis impacts her thoughts on it but I also think you need to chill a bit on it, teenagers are so dramatic at the best of times.

People also need to learn that you dont get attention on demand, other people do not exist to be your audience. What happened to you to make you think that was normal?

Oh bless you .... make a list of all the wonderful things you have done for your DD in her life ... have plenty of paper handy!
My DDs are adults now and I have mentioned things that I thought I had done wrong and they just look at me puzzled! But then grumble about something that I had forgotten or seen as minor.
It's the up and down and the rough and tumble of life.

I feel for you op, you don't need to feel bad. these comments aren't great from others. She has autism and adhd, she feels things very differently to the average person. I would have a nice calm chat when the timing is right

True but Mumsnet isn't one person/mind, different threads trigger/attract different types of people (and even the same thread with two different writeups attracts different people)
Although the first page is generally knee jerk reactions, which may or may not be useful.

I don't think this is especially unusual for children with ASD or ADHD, especially those who experience RSD. There is at least one study showing that autistic people can process even mild stress the way non-autistic people process traumatic events to the extent it can cause PTSD-like symptoms and memories. Interpersonal conflict, constant masking and social exclusion can all be processed as trauma by anyone, but it seems more common amongst autistic people. I've experienced this myself, though after DBT and years of counselling I now rarely have trauma reactions or RSD the way I used to. Even so, I would never consider my upbringing to have been a 'traumatic childhood' despite processing various things as trauma; on the whole it was good, and I was lucky for it to be so.

None of that is to say that you're a bad parent for shouting every now and then! It's impossible to avoid or tiptoe around everything that could possibly upset someone regardless of how sensitive they are to trauma, especially when you had no idea she would remember that event so clearly over a decade later.

As for advice, I'd say to leave the trauma element unless it's something she brings up. The potential RSD is worth looking into, though, as better emotional regulation can help prevent future events from being traumatising in the same way. As mentioned I found DBT incredibly helpful, which many with ADHD seem to report, as well as the more mixed-approach counselling I have now to keep myself on an even keel long-term.

To be fair if my ASD son dropped his yoghurt that really would be very upsetting for him, and seem excessive to those around. He absolutely hates losing/breaking/using up things, the first epic meltdown (age about 2) was someone else in the group losing their hat when it suddenly blew away, I've never seen anything like it. Also at toddler/preschool age, missing buses, leaving a free junk leaflet on the bus, or batteries going flat in things.

He also called a lot of things shouting which I would call talking sternly, and thought I looked angry a lot which I would call concentrating.

Obviously things are improving his side but I'm genuinely sympathetic rather than dismissive, on one side he does have to get used to it, so I give him appropriate opportunities to get used to this kind of thing. But on the other side ultimately that's how his brain is wired and it's not for me to decide or judge what sticks in his mind and upsets him greatly, I'm just there to support him accordingly.

All of this

No it sounds like she’s attention seeking because her friend is going through something genuinely traumatic and she wants the same attention

Every teenager (or maybe even adult) will be able to think back to a really upsetting moment caused by their parents. That’s unavoidable.

DS’s, which he constantly reminds me about, is when I “abandoned him” in a car when he was little, all alone and he was hysterical and terrified. The truth is that he was 3 or 4 years old, we’d been to a friend’s house, we left the house, I put him in his car seat (car on the drive) and I realised I’d forgotten my phone. I dashed back to the front door and waited on the doorstep whilst my friend found my phone.

But he was little and that minute or so I left him in the car felt a lot longer to him.

Don’t beat yourself up. If it hadn’t been that, it would be something else.

I think the preponderence of therapy/psychology/counselling-speak is not beneficial to us. A lot of terms which should be reserved for professionals (and I don't mean the local counsellor - I mean qualified psychiatrists) are just bandied about by people who've heard them, maybe used inaccurately, and not properly understood.

Also - if there's a word for something, then it must exist? So, young people hearing the word 'trauma' will use it about all kinds of experiences. Life can be tough and sometimes frightening but a lot of 'traumatic' experiences come within the normal range of life experiences. I got divorced - it was extremely unpleasant. It wasn't traumatic, for me anyway. I had a very sick child who was hospitalised for many months and who had many operations. it was stressful and worrying, but not traumatic.

Trauma is used nowadays in a jokey way too: "I was traumatised by seeing myself in the changing room mirror!" Which doesn't help.

I know people experience things differently, but even allowing for your daughter's ND, I think you should explain to her (at her age) that far worse things happen to people (look at Nepal) and to keep extreme terms like trauma for life's most horrible experiences.

How would she describe, say, sexual abuse, if she thinks being shouted at is traumatic? (I'm not suggesting you ask her that!!!! But that's the message you need to convey, more gently, of course.)

Teenagers are dramatic at the best of times especially around this age. As she is ND it’s probably affected her a bit more and obsessing over things can be a symptom.

I wouldn’t bring it up to her, even if you are feeling guilty. By addressing it you’re making an issue of it again and almost validating her unreasonable reaction.

I got more than shouted as kid along with most people of my age and we are all ok.

That’s wrong though because it ascribes trauma (real) to a situation which was a bit annoying. That doesn’t help my son understand anything about life in general! Imagine if he actually was allowed to think that a dropped yoghurt was real trauma, and then shared that, alongside someone who had actually suffered something properly catastrophic?

That’s not to say I didn’t sympathise on the day - but Christ on a bike, if that’s the worst thing that’s happened to him by age 15 then he has a charmed life and I’m rocking at parenting.

When you say "that's wrong" what part of my post are you referring to?
I think you might have read more into my post than was actually intended.
I'm not in the business of comparing people's right to have certain feelings, they are not a limited resource.

I wouldn't call having a sick child hospitalised for months part of the normal range of human life experiences. I find it strange that you would define it that way. Don't get me wrong, I'm impressed with your resilience and I'm glad it didn't feel traumatic to you. But I think most people would feel traumatised if their child is horrendously poorly for that long with various operations. In fact, that's why charities exist to support parents going through it, offering various types of therapy and advice etc. The average person would be forever changed by that, of course probably able to return to normal functioning eventually with support, but it would certainly leave an emotional scar which surely is the definition of trauma.

I speak as a parent of a child in a similar situation. Her father was diagnosed with PTSD afterwards and he was told it's incredibly common after that sort of thing.

My DD (21) has told me that both she and DS remember an evening years ago when DH and I had a big argument upstairs and they were both downstairs feeling frightened and upset. They remember that incident because it was the only time that it happened during their childhood. We've apologized for it.

That's why your DD remembers too, it was a one-off negative experience. No parents are perfect and your DD will realize that at some point.

Talk to her. At 4 it make that much if an impact, i think it would help to say you maybe didnt handle that situation the best and you're sorry. 4 year olds don't know how to regulate their emotions on their own. It doesnt make you a bad parent. Every parent handles situations in ways that their children find hurtful at some stage.

Rejection Sensitivity Disorder - is this what used to be called in school reports “can’t take criticism”?