Paternity leave is too short- will it ever change?

[pisces5891]

I'm really interested in people's views on paternity leave and extending it the UK like they have in the nordic countries.

For context im 3 months post partum and my husband wfh. It's made a huge difference to my mental health to have another adult around during the day, and he's super hands on. For example, he will hold her while i use bathroom, do a call, pop to the shops, make lunch etc, so i really have the feeling of having a lot of help. Of course he focuses on work for the majority of the day. But I think if he wasnt there, id feel so lonely and occasionally really overwhelmed. I feel really lucky to have that support. I read an article about how in sweden they linked longer paternity leave with a huge decrease in post natal depression in women.

It got me thinking about the fact that in the UK, the majority of tiny baby care is done by a mum who likely spends quite a bit of the day alone (i.e. no close family to help out everyday, husband out at work etc). Thats certainly true of my nct class. You might see people at baby classes etc, but generally it's a lone task. Grandparents might help ocasionally, but its not the norm to get help daily.

To me, that's such an unhappy state of affairs. Children used to be raised in villages, and my experience with my own daughter is that id be so lonely if dh wasnt around. It makes me want to join the campaign to extend paternity leave. However, that campaign seems a but under supported in the UK compared to nordic countries? I saw a picture of a protest and there were about 20 people there🙄. Some of the women i know kind of accept that it's there job to watch baby, and that there's some biological and economic sense in men going back to work quite soon, and they can cope alone. But i don't want to just cope! I think looking after a baby as a couple is just much much nicer.

Really curious to hear peoples thoughts on this. Do we think there's a culture in the UK of accepting paternity leave as it is? What kind of paternity leave would you have wanted your dh to have? What would have been the ideal?

I know sometimes people say that if your bresdtfeeding , it makes sense for mum to be main carer..i disagree with this. I breastfeed, and i still want the help and the company!

I think the shared parental leave makes sense and is sensible. Maternity here is pretty reasonable too, overall I think this is something that we get right as a country.

Indiajet,I'm going for 100. Funny how everything is our fault! I never had a village,nor did parents, late DM left school at 13, went out to work. When I had my dks,first marriage maternity leave was 6 weeks after birth, I saved a bit of money so I could have 3 months. nursing it was heavy work (trained in the 70s. Second marriage, didn't expect to return to nursing (left homeless and penniless after divorce) I worked evenings, twilight shift, then ft nights. It meant I was home in the day if kids were sick. Husbands had a week off,if that.

@FruitFlyPie It’s like a fantastic sabbatical every 2-3 years if you have a bigger family . Meanwhile others take next to nothing as they have such a big financial hit. I always see it’s the highly paid getting this enormous perk making the haves and not haves even more obvious.

There have been some posts on MN where the husband has taken paternity leave to use to go traveling with friends, leaving his wife and baby at home.

Completely agree, the purpose of maternity leave seems to have been lost sight of in debate and when I visit new families and go to baby groups, it seems like fathers don’t necessarily realise what the legislation actually said the purpose of paternity leave is meant to be ‘to help care for the mother and baby’ They have this idea that men in the past didn’t do anything around the home or as fathers and that now more is expected of them they have been given a token paltry equivalent to maternity leave or if they’ve got a good employer a more reasonable 6 months. Of course there were always deadbeat dads about and still are but there were plenty of great dads about in the past too and just because the fathers weren’t necessarily always so involved in the changing of nappies and the little baby stage they were often gave just as much as a meaningful contribution to the child’s upbringing overall

I feel like lots of things are being conflated here that shouldn't be;

Of course, I'm not suggesting men get extended paternity leave at the expense of womens mat leave. Women should have access to all the time they need to heal, feed, bond with baby and so on.

I think if you don't want your partner around beyond 2 weeks, that's very personal and individual, but it shouldnt stop other couples getting more time with a newborn where that would be helpful. At 2 weeks post partum, i was still in pain from my c section and having my husband around was a source of major physical help and recovery. Having 6 weeks would have been a god send for both of us.

On the subject of the village, i have amazing parents, siblings, in laws and friends, and for various reasons many of them can't help us regularly, although they help as much as they can. The reality for many women is they don't have a lot of help, that's just a fact. And why does it have to be either / or? I want family help and i want my husband to have longer paternity leave, and I'm not ashamed of that.

Finally there's some women - blaming in these posts that i find really uncomfortable. If you don't have a village to support you, its your fault because you haven't nurtured your connections. If you don't get out and about and meet other mums, you've no right to complain about being lonely post partum. If you can't cope alone with a baby, your "feeble". I just want to say to any new mums in here; if you're struggling with loneliness and overwhelm, you are not alone, and you are not failing. If your struggling to go out because you're in pain, or your shy to feed in public, or your babies a bad sleeper, or you're just totally overwhelmed, that's OK. If you don't have any mum friends yet, or your shy, or you just don't have the mental energy to meet new people, that's OK. If your terrified of your partner going back to work, or your mum leaving you, that's totally normal.

Right, logging off this thread and yes, i am going to join the protests for more paternity leave... as is my husband.

@pisces5891 This is the trouble with making a statement. You were never intending to hear alternative views. You wanted an echo chamber. No, firms and the government cannot afford it! If they afford anything, it should be for self employed dads to enable them to have something that’s paid! But you just carry on wanting more for yourself!

I would leave my job in a fucking second if we could afford it. That's the bloody point: my mother, my grandmothers all got to quit their jobs and live off their husbands salary. My dad literally had the same job as me but his purchasing power was far greater than mine. My babcia got 3 years paid maternity.

Men absolutely need time because they don't get a hormonal bond and the feeling of having a life growing inside them. They have no bond during pregnancy and are just expected afterwards to change nappies and deal with sleep depravation. Why wouldn't you want men to have oxytocin flowing through them? More bonding means less absent fathers, why would anyone not want that?

And this attitude is why nothing gets any better for anyone. Imagine if someone said "I just beat cancer. They better not create a cure for cancer now" that's basically what you're saying.

@DefiantRabbit9 It’s difficult to know that. Many men don’t want extra time at home. They are not besotted with being a dad. You cannot turn a pigs ear of a dad into a silk purse dad. Behaviour often runs through families and being around babies and changing nappies doesn’t interest them, and they would rather be at work.

Men absolutely need time because they don't get a hormonal bond and the feeling of having a life growing inside them. They have no bond during pregnancy and are just expected afterwards to change nappies and deal with sleep depravation. Why wouldn't you want men to have oxytocin flowing through them?

That is such a daft statement.
I have been part of the lives of many men who have just melted with love as they have become fathers. Both my dh, db, dbils, friends, colleagues, and now the next generations - my nephews and the husbands of my nieces, my God children, their dhs, my friends sons, my dcs' friends. I have seen it over and over again.
They are there at the birth, they are home for 24/7 for at least the first 2 weeks (many add on AL to that), they are there through the evenings, during the nights, and in the mornings (for 9 - 5 workers) as well as the weekends, and same or more hours, at different times if shift workers.
Absolutely ludicrous to say they have no bond.

Your equation has no logic to it?

A man that doesn’t fancy changing too many nappies and would rather be at work does not equate to a rubbish father. We don’t say the same of a mother wanting to go back to work. I’ve seen more than enough men who are all for getting the credit or being involved in the baby stage, especially the baby snuggles (which serve as an excellent excuse to scroll on his phone for hours) but then hardly bothered about financially supporting them or being there for them when it really matters and they 4-5 and want to play or wondering when daddy is next coming to visit them and yet saw plenty of men of yesteryear who never changed a nappy and yet read a bedtime story every night, took them with them to their hobbies, taught their child all the diy skills they use to this day etc

@JustGiveMeReason there have been several studies done.

Shared care, fathers' involvement in care and family well-being outcomes: a literature review - GOV.UK

Which fathers are involved in looking after their children? Identifying the conditions associated with paternal involvement - UK Data Service

When given the option fathers do take up the opportunity to spend time with their newborns. Since bringing in paternity leave 59% of dads take it up. On top of that stay at home dads are increasing.

Yes most people would take subsidised time off if offered??

@DefiantRabbit9 - the report you have linked to is about fathers being involved, nothing to do with being given extra paid time off.

It specifically says However, studies note that rather than the absolute amount of time spent, the quality of the time spent with fathers matter. More specifically, the time fathers spend taking part in educational and enrichment activities (such as playing) with their children seems to matter most which is nothing to do with extended paternity leave.

I can't see anyone disagreeing with what is written in the report, but it has nothing to do with this thread.

@JustGiveMeReason. I ageee with the report and that quality of parenting matters more than being present and paid to be present.

It does have something to do with the state of extra time off because we have bills to pay and can't survive off of one salary anymore.

Maternity pay is half minimum wage (the minimum the government recognises) someone needs to live off of) and only paid for 9 months. Paternity is only 2 weeks. We're being forced back into work rather than being allowed to raise our children which can be cruel.

We live in Sweden, we pay almost exactly the same tax we were paying in the UK, it meant our childcare bill was about £84 a month, rather than over £1,000 a month.

A quick google of Sweden’s economy and total tax take in relation to GDP will tell you why.

@DefiantRabbit9Families cannot have this huge state handout though. It doesn’t need two people not working to look after a baby! The people who fare far worse than you are the self employed.

Why keep going on about the self-employed. That is usually a choice. If you don't like it there is always the option of an ordinary job! That will probably pay a bit less but then you do get benefits like maternity and paternity leave.

@MeetMeOnTheCorner I'm not abdicating parasitically living off the state (and trust me I have a lot of opinions on the welfare state). What I'm abdicating for is more time for father's to stay with their children and more importantly the purchasing power of previous generations.

@CuteOrangeElephant You have no idea about the economy do you? Do you honestly believe being self employed is a totally free choice for those who are? There are 4.5 million self employed workers in the uk. So it’s just as well they exist because where would 4.5 million jobs come from? Plus - they employ others! It’s breathtaking you don’t understand or value their importance.

You do understand that partners in companies may be self employed and that not everyone can work for a bigger employer with all the perks? Try reading the research from the Rowntree foundation about where the paternity issue really is. It’s not well paid men getting even more perks. They can take paid leave if they want more time or just be involved as much as they can. But - they are getting paid!

What a lovely sentiment, hoping for "the boomers" to die off. Do you know that "the boomers " got 6 weeks paid maternity leave, and that if they didn't return to work after those six weeks then their job could perfectly legitimately be given to someone else? Do you know that there was no paternal leave at all for them? Do you know that there was no taxpayer subsidised nursery care for them, and indeed very little nursery care at all?
People claiming pensions now paid the pensions of the generation before them, that's the way the system works. Many of them still pay income tax and that pays amongst other things for your subsidised childcare.
If you can't manage not to sound quite so entitled, perhaps you could manage to sound a little less offensive.