Paternity leave is too short- will it ever change?

[pisces5891]

I'm really interested in people's views on paternity leave and extending it the UK like they have in the nordic countries.

For context im 3 months post partum and my husband wfh. It's made a huge difference to my mental health to have another adult around during the day, and he's super hands on. For example, he will hold her while i use bathroom, do a call, pop to the shops, make lunch etc, so i really have the feeling of having a lot of help. Of course he focuses on work for the majority of the day. But I think if he wasnt there, id feel so lonely and occasionally really overwhelmed. I feel really lucky to have that support. I read an article about how in sweden they linked longer paternity leave with a huge decrease in post natal depression in women.

It got me thinking about the fact that in the UK, the majority of tiny baby care is done by a mum who likely spends quite a bit of the day alone (i.e. no close family to help out everyday, husband out at work etc). Thats certainly true of my nct class. You might see people at baby classes etc, but generally it's a lone task. Grandparents might help ocasionally, but its not the norm to get help daily.

To me, that's such an unhappy state of affairs. Children used to be raised in villages, and my experience with my own daughter is that id be so lonely if dh wasnt around. It makes me want to join the campaign to extend paternity leave. However, that campaign seems a but under supported in the UK compared to nordic countries? I saw a picture of a protest and there were about 20 people there🙄. Some of the women i know kind of accept that it's there job to watch baby, and that there's some biological and economic sense in men going back to work quite soon, and they can cope alone. But i don't want to just cope! I think looking after a baby as a couple is just much much nicer.

Really curious to hear peoples thoughts on this. Do we think there's a culture in the UK of accepting paternity leave as it is? What kind of paternity leave would you have wanted your dh to have? What would have been the ideal?

I know sometimes people say that if your bresdtfeeding , it makes sense for mum to be main carer..i disagree with this. I breastfeed, and i still want the help and the company!

I found it invaluable to have DH off for six weeks,

I had a C-section and the baby had some complications so we had to go to the hospital twice a week. Because of the C-section I also couldn't drive and DDs school was too far to walk to.

I think six week paternity leave should be the minimum.

I had my second mat leave during Covid which meant DH was wfh the whole time even though he officially only took 4 weeks pat leave. It made a huge huge difference psychologically and practically having him able to listen for DD2 crying while I had a shower or hold her in a sling while I ate lunch etc. I was so much happier and more well adjusted. I think paternity leave should be longer and wfh flex should be standard during that era

I think 6 weeks should be given in cases such as yours (and longer if baby in NICU longer) but should be able to be allocated to any one named person supporting the new mother, sometimes grandma is of more help than the partner

A year off is fine. Ask for unpaid leave, a career break, or leave your job if you want more off. It’s intended for mothers to appropriately recover from childbirth, hence why men don’t need anything approaching the sane, no matter how much they love “snuggling their little bumble bee”.

Using childcare is not having someone else raise your child and it’s incredibly offensive to suggest that it is. Your wish for all “boomers” to die off is offensive too, as well as misguided, as those boomers will simply be replaced by more pensioners who, having paid other people’s old age pension for years, now expect theirs to be paid.

Yes i totally agree. Very few take shared leave because of all the reasons you write. I'm a freelancer so we don't have that option!

Would love to see it equal for both sexes. To me it’s the A1 to better dads. Think it would also help in reducing inequality in the workplace and be good for society in general

Brought it up at work really surprised by the push back against it after all I’ve read on MN. I got some very harsh and sexist comments .

Totally agree. They only managed it in the nordic countries because they heavily incentivised it.

You may still be able to actually depending on if your partner is employed.

on the pay point. I find it infuriating that maternity pay has been what it is for years, but yet as soon as SPL came in the rate started being touted as a problem, because oh no, it was now going to affect men. No one gave a shit about women’s pay

FWIW I personally only support shared parental leave to the extent that as a family there is 12 months available (but it can be taken by either party) so the additional cost to businesses is actually not relevant. Different businesses might pay but overall it’s cost neutral. Having said that, I don’t know much about models used in other countries and I haven’t understood the potential wider benefits to expanding parental leave more broadly.

You’re right, lots of men don’t want to take time off because they think it will make them look ‘unserious’ but this is an attitude we need to challenge for both men and women because, as you so rightly point out, it is mainly to the detriment of women.

Ironically many women are against SPL because they focus on the ‘time off’ they are losing whereas I would argue that so much more is gained by men being more equally involved in parenting from day 1. Women’s wages broadly track men’s until they have kids, then they make different decisions about their careers - less pressured roles, more flexible roles, part time working etc. all because they are the primary caregiver. Then it’s baked in - women look after kids and work if possible, men prioritise their careers and parent if possible. There’s nothing wrong with this devision of labour, assuming it’s a choice - as it is, it’s the default. I don’t necessarily think that’s good for women.

But this is exactly the reason to have really secure paternity pay. So that key workers, labourers and so on, have protected time with there families. There's a definite divide Between those who have the jobs where you can wfh and those who don't, and there's a clear unfairness there.

Agree about the village, it can be romanticised. My mum grew up with her whole family in the same town, whereas myself and everyone i know lives with distance from our families usually because of work or partners work

Me too. Bloody cheeky. I had to cope alone for most of my babies early years as their dad worked offshore. Modern parents have it so good by comparison to the parents of the eighties and nineties.

worth checking if your husband can take it - I think your earnings need to meet certain criteria but being freelance doesn’t rule it out.

I see your point but, again anecdotally, I'm the main driver of social gatherings with my nct group, so having regular help hasnt decreased my desire to bond with other mothers.

Exactly this

DH is a 'keyworker' as you describe, he got 2 weeks paternity leave but was also allowed to hold 2 weeks annual leave in the bank to use when I had the baby so he had a month off, it was actually over Christmas so with bank holidays etc it was around 5 weeks in total which was fine. He also condensed his hours to 5 days in 4 as soon as ds was born, so was around an extra day a week, I think more of that flexibility is better as he still has it now DS is 7 so has him over day a week in the holidays just the two of them, picked him up from school on a Friday and takes him swimming etc (I do similar but have Mondays off and we split other pick ups and drop off between us) it means they have that regular time the two of them which I think is more valuable than a few extra weeks paternity leave. His company also still have him for full time his every week, and he still pays tax on a full time salary so everyone wins

I think this is an extreme. Giving dads a bit longer at home wouldn't open the floodgates of people travelling and so on. It might just relieve the pressure on women though

And id add generally, of course small businesses would need support to make extra PL happen. It feels like a pipe dream though. I think there is too much culturally ingrained about who is supposed to do what at home, and that takes so much will to change. And its also about where value is placed. Society doesnt really care about womens experiences. That's why all the studies around our health, bodies, hormones etc are so lacking.

I acknowledge here that some women are totally happy and fine to look after baby alone or with limited help- all power to you, that's not the case for me, of course everyone is different ❤️

I know, I’d love to be one of these people who found it all easy and didn’t need any support! Sadly it isn’t the case for all of us.

Yes I didn’t understand the comment about the having someone else to raise your child and the relevance to paternity leave, surely it would make minimal difference on when a child starts childcare if there was extended paternity leave, especially if couples are both taking time off at the same time. The whole avoiding the default parent thing is rubbish too as every female breadwinner I know still does most of the mental load and research shows the same thing statistically too. I had a friend whose ex partner was a SAHD from their first child so they both had the year off, he certainly didn’t take on any more of the mental load than any other dad

I think there's lots of problems to sort with maternity leave before we worry too much about paternity leave. Statutory maternity pay is shockingly low, and I know women who are forced back to work when their babies are still tiny which is not good for anyone. My DH has two weeks (which he bumps up to 3/4 using annual leave). If course I'd love him to be around more but it's totally sufficient.

It’s not a cost to the taxpayer for shared parental leave though. As you’re splitting the one year between you. The government gives the statutory amounts to businesses, anything enhanced over that is provided as a benefit by your employer.

Im a big believer is shared parental leave, as a benefit to women, men and the children. I don’t know any man who has taken the leave and is a bad parent. But I do think some of that is with changing attitudes, a lot of younger men want to be hands of and involved. I see it with my colleagues even a few years younger than me who are off on their leave

I quite enjoyed my alone time with DC1 when DH went back to work as I like my own company, but I found it much much harder the second time. Not just because I already had a toddler, but just everything felt so overwhelming and I spent a lot of days when DC1 was at nursery not doing very much except cuddling DC2 and watching TV which probably led to me going on antidepressants. Had DH been there for longer than 2 weeks I definitely wouldn't have been like this.

Personally I would of found it more useful to have the government fund a home help for me in the first few weeks than extra paternity leave, my DH is great but isn’t suddenly going to turn into all singing and dancing house husband during paternity leave, is not something noticed many other husbands doing, a few at baby group have had their hubbies take extended leave and the first time mothers (or those with other kids in full time childcare) generally don’t mind so much as the couple are just treating it like a holiday but the ones with older children and housework that needs doing just get frustrated that he’s not actually pulling his weight. Would be very interesting if you actually gave women the choice between a home help & free childcare for older children or extended paternity leave which they would find more helpful!

reading some of these it’s again the message of ‘women at fault’. We’re at fault if we don’t share our leave (the dads will be rubbish) we’re at fault if we do (we’re not being ‘motherly enough’) we’re at fault if we breastfeed and take longer leave for this (think of the poor dads who can’t bond) we’re at fault for having children (you had them, you pay for them…)

it’s exhausting.

I did actually offer my DH SPL with my second as we knew I wasn’t going back to work (shock horror I became a SAHP 😱) He didn’t take it up because he has a shitty boss who’d actually asked him why I could have a c section so we knew when his leave would be!

We were going to use shared parental but then we had a velcro allergy baby that screamed whenever they weren't attached to my boobs, wouldn't sleep and wouldn't take a bottle. So I ended up taking the hit.