Paternity leave is too short- will it ever change?

[pisces5891]

I'm really interested in people's views on paternity leave and extending it the UK like they have in the nordic countries.

For context im 3 months post partum and my husband wfh. It's made a huge difference to my mental health to have another adult around during the day, and he's super hands on. For example, he will hold her while i use bathroom, do a call, pop to the shops, make lunch etc, so i really have the feeling of having a lot of help. Of course he focuses on work for the majority of the day. But I think if he wasnt there, id feel so lonely and occasionally really overwhelmed. I feel really lucky to have that support. I read an article about how in sweden they linked longer paternity leave with a huge decrease in post natal depression in women.

It got me thinking about the fact that in the UK, the majority of tiny baby care is done by a mum who likely spends quite a bit of the day alone (i.e. no close family to help out everyday, husband out at work etc). Thats certainly true of my nct class. You might see people at baby classes etc, but generally it's a lone task. Grandparents might help ocasionally, but its not the norm to get help daily.

To me, that's such an unhappy state of affairs. Children used to be raised in villages, and my experience with my own daughter is that id be so lonely if dh wasnt around. It makes me want to join the campaign to extend paternity leave. However, that campaign seems a but under supported in the UK compared to nordic countries? I saw a picture of a protest and there were about 20 people there🙄. Some of the women i know kind of accept that it's there job to watch baby, and that there's some biological and economic sense in men going back to work quite soon, and they can cope alone. But i don't want to just cope! I think looking after a baby as a couple is just much much nicer.

Really curious to hear peoples thoughts on this. Do we think there's a culture in the UK of accepting paternity leave as it is? What kind of paternity leave would you have wanted your dh to have? What would have been the ideal?

I know sometimes people say that if your bresdtfeeding , it makes sense for mum to be main carer..i disagree with this. I breastfeed, and i still want the help and the company!

Yeah it is rubbish. Even worse for self employed it’s literally zero. I had a section on the the monday. Husband had to go to work on the Thursday leaving me with 2 under 2. We just are not well
enough off to have any more time off or save enough in advance !

You do realise how many people are employed in the public sector ?
I believe the NHS is the biggest employer in the UK. Then add in LA employees, Civil Servants, the judicary, prison services, courts, police, fire services, teachers, social workers, armed forces, National Highways and many others I can't bring to mind right now, so people saying "the employer pays / offers it as a perk" are talking about all of us who pay taxes.

Now, I am not one of the people who thinks taxes should never be raised, but if my taxes are being raised, I hope it isn't to fund a lovely holiday, or the absolute piss take upthread about 'going traveling' because a couple decide to have a baby. There are millions of things I would want funded from 'the public purse' long before 6 months paternity leave got anywhere near the list.

Exactly, my DH did a lot of overtime this year and wouldn’t it have been lovely for us to do some household repairs or a mini break over the summer holidays but with it but 2/3 of it was taken by the government in tax (including CBHIC component) leaving us with barely enough to cover school uniforms etc. Now I wouldn’t begrudge the fact that meant my kids didn’t even get a night away over this summer holidays or we still have a broken shower to pay for a mother not to have to hobble back to work at 6 weeks, for parents to be together while their baby in NICU or my elderly neighbour to be seen to promptly and with care in A&E but anyone who says taxes need to go on men having an extended leave in order for them/their DH to agree to be a decent father and pull his weight long term can jog on. As for him being their as struggling, may have some sympathy if actually under evidenced treatment for postnatal issues but not just because it’s nice to have him there 🙄 yes indeed coping with several small children (including one still up in the night breastfeeding) it would be lovely to have my DH here instead of him having to work this weekend but he has to work so much because of all the bloody tax he has to pay

Boomer post alert!

Paternal leave was three days when I had my two. And even though I had no family support locally, though it would have been good to have more, I think that under normal circumstances, two weeks is okay.

My husband was a super-involved parent and did much of the domestic stuff as well, but he did that after work and at weekends.

I'm a pretty independent person, though, and I wanted to get into my own sustainable routine. If he'd been hovering around for 3-6 months, I don't think I'd have found my role and my rhythm (and my mum-friend support network) anywhere near as easily.

Yes I see it all around me and feel it myself - no village. Waiting for my one consistent support to finish work.

I’d vote/pay my taxes to see longer paid paternity leave and not ‘shared leave’ that takes from the mother. Family is important and an investment for everyone’s future.

When I had my first our village was the other mums with babies, husbands all worked full time with minimal leave but we got together with each other, met at each other’s houses for coffee. Extended paternity leave seems to be a very expensive solution to a simple problem

Incidentally, it's predicted that better payernity would not only support womens mental health, but also reduce divorce rates, and it wouldnt be a huge tax burden to raise it to 6 weeks. (In fact it's predicted it will boost the economy in the long run)

I want my husband around AND i want a community of other mothers that i can form a village with. The 2 arent mutually exclusive. The nordic countries are living proof. It's just about where you place value...

Also, if we all agree that its annoying to pay higher taxes so that rich people can use paternity leave to go on holiday, then the solution isn't no paternity leave; its to tax the rich more...

Tbf I’d also like to see more men going part time after maternity leave. I am seeing more and more couples doing 4 days each meaning only 3 days of childcare.

Sorry you went through that but thanks for proving my point and why I gave up on the idea.

It Obviously it needs working through properly to address the issues you faced and similar compilations. I don’t think it can just be a reciprocal policy for both sexes equal also has to be fair.

Having worked with families for 25 years I believe it has a much wider impact for society and I was surprised genuinely how women and men didn’t see that. Which it’s why it’s worth seeing if it can be afforded.

It sets the bar low that childcare is women’s work. Our local PTA all women. The disability group I help run all women bar me and is reflected in other groups. When I see children being brought to my clinic nearly always women Mum/Nana it’s improved over the years but still 90/95% women if you include women attending with men.

I believe changing the Pat leave allowance would change this and many other inequalities.

@WillieBanjo It cannot be afforded! There’s no doubt about it. Plus the massive inconvenience to SMEs who just have to put up with more and more government intervention: NI, wages, employment conditions and now this idea. If anyone wants business to succeed, grow, pay taxes and have plenty of employees paying taxes, further burdens are not the way to go. We know the paternity leave offered already isn’t taken up and how many people truly want this? Yes, the middle class to go travelling but other men need to concentrate on their careers and/or women too. There will be fewer and fewer jobs at this rate and we are already seeing graduates and school leavers not being employed in vast numbers. It’s incomprehensible to me that those who already have jobs and a decent desk just want more and more and more! Dads really csn have a family life if they make time at the weekends and whenever they are around in the week. Most men are great dads!

@MeetMeOnTheCorner Without looking like I am completely contradicting myself I agree with you on affordability now. I work in public services and I am a very loan voice in not asking for more and more money which equals more and more tax.

The but is that I believe that we could loose significant chunks of public spending in other areas to afford this change. Maybe not the full 9 months but significantly longer than the two weeks I got .

I really don’t agree with about weekends making up for it . That’s the park, the baths the fun stuff. Not the appointments, the school meetings , the drugery of childcare ( it’s not all unicorns and rainbows) That to me is also being a dad.

Like I say I seen it for years. First appt Mum second appt ( treatment) mum and dad . year's of aftercare appointments mum. Not always but mostly (and I wasn’t allowed to audit it before you ask for evidence)

@MeetMeOnTheCorner No one is saying men aren't great dads. And the research shows men having longer paternity leave has a net benefit to the economy

@WillieBanjo totally agree about weekends and what the long term picture looks like for women. Its exhausting that it has to be said when its plain for everyone to see

But you won’t be flying off for a holiday in the sun maybe.
I think leave is quite generous now and people can use it for a variety of reasons, including being at home with a young baby.
Also as pp suggest, people are confusing paternity leave and pay.

@pisces5891

You would think so but I took a smaller idea to our HR/ women’s and men’s groups, think massive public sector employer and they looked at me like I was bonkers.

I believe the fact I was a man confused them even more !

That's what we do and it has been brilliant.

So much easier with appointments for the children too!

@CuteOrangeElephant You must be rich then and certainly not running a business.

Nope we are not rich.

It saves two days of childcare costs for two children so the financial impact isn't as big as you would expect.

@pisces5891 How? In what way? Middle class good dads just taking more time off? In the current climate of NI increases, lack of jobs for younger people and more onerous employment conditions I doubt very much there’s any up to date data on this snd it’s debatable in the first place. How, exactly does a company benefit by not having both men and women absent for months on end?

Don’t you think getting work for young people is far more of a priority? I do. Those with decent enough conditions need to stand aside from constant demands and understand non working young people are a massive drain on society. Help them first - not you getting even more.

Because children are the future doctor, nurses, social workers, scientists etc who are going to be looking after you when you're older.

All classes have kids.
The poor struggle with childcare and it often means women can't work because it they get paid less or the same as the childcare costs. Having men be flexible with work and confident to look after their kids because they know the ropes is an obvious win for the economy and outcomes.

I think I'd prefer to see more support for self employed parents to get more support financially. My husband had about two days off for each baby. After the first he did change his hours so he could have a day at home every week to enable me to do an extra day at work but other then that we couldn't afford for him to have no money coming in whatsoever.

I had no family so had to build my own village through meeting other parents at groups. Made some life long friends through those.

@Wipeywipey It absolutely is not in a productivity sense for the company! The woman not working is just at home! Having two at home costing a business money just is not needed for any extensive time and certainly won’t get a woman into work becayse it’s short term. Yes, many women give up work due to the cost of childcare, but that’s an entirely different argument. I still stand by the point that companies and public bodies should be encouraged to employ young people over and above giving more generous benefits to existing staff. The young deserve a change to work and grad unemployment is 8%. Never mind non grad unemployment.

The problem with the idea of just taxing people more to pay for this wish list is that what it really means is that people who are not actually very rich get dragged into paying more tax. People who have inherited wealth, help from the bank of mum and dad through their life, free childcare from family, a council house etc will say hey that’s fine because they’re not also paying £1000+ in interest a month on their mortgage, cars efc so they have enough not to care that much as they’re not actually seeing their children missing out on basic things because of our astronomical rate of current income tax. What would possibly help the country is not to apply ridiculous rates of marginal income tax on families within certain income brackets. If it was as easy as just taxing the super rich more don’t you think of all governments the current one would have done that by now?