Paternity leave is too short- will it ever change?

[pisces5891]

I'm really interested in people's views on paternity leave and extending it the UK like they have in the nordic countries.

For context im 3 months post partum and my husband wfh. It's made a huge difference to my mental health to have another adult around during the day, and he's super hands on. For example, he will hold her while i use bathroom, do a call, pop to the shops, make lunch etc, so i really have the feeling of having a lot of help. Of course he focuses on work for the majority of the day. But I think if he wasnt there, id feel so lonely and occasionally really overwhelmed. I feel really lucky to have that support. I read an article about how in sweden they linked longer paternity leave with a huge decrease in post natal depression in women.

It got me thinking about the fact that in the UK, the majority of tiny baby care is done by a mum who likely spends quite a bit of the day alone (i.e. no close family to help out everyday, husband out at work etc). Thats certainly true of my nct class. You might see people at baby classes etc, but generally it's a lone task. Grandparents might help ocasionally, but its not the norm to get help daily.

To me, that's such an unhappy state of affairs. Children used to be raised in villages, and my experience with my own daughter is that id be so lonely if dh wasnt around. It makes me want to join the campaign to extend paternity leave. However, that campaign seems a but under supported in the UK compared to nordic countries? I saw a picture of a protest and there were about 20 people there🙄. Some of the women i know kind of accept that it's there job to watch baby, and that there's some biological and economic sense in men going back to work quite soon, and they can cope alone. But i don't want to just cope! I think looking after a baby as a couple is just much much nicer.

Really curious to hear peoples thoughts on this. Do we think there's a culture in the UK of accepting paternity leave as it is? What kind of paternity leave would you have wanted your dh to have? What would have been the ideal?

I know sometimes people say that if your bresdtfeeding , it makes sense for mum to be main carer..i disagree with this. I breastfeed, and i still want the help and the company!

I agree with @MeetMeOnTheCorner 's more realistic assessment of tames past, BUT, @pisces5891 , how are you going to grow your own support network if you and your dh are both sitting there at home looking after the baby ? Groups, and support networks that thrive, do so because people have a need for those networks and put the commitment in. I'm not sure getting rid of so much need for company is going to help people who don't have a partner who can support them.
Don't get me wrong, two of my God daughters have had babies in the past 2 years. One has a dh who wfh, has his own business and can come out of his office when it is helpful with the baby. The other one has a husband who is a paramedic. He works long shifts, is rarely home on time, and is not able to just 'hold the baby' whilst his wife wants to do something without the baby. I know life has been easier for the one whose dh is at home, but the one who has had to get on with it has built herself a real solid group of friends and also a huge amount of confidence and self belief. I'm afraid to say the one who has 'had it easy' is the one who is more isolated now and who also over thinks things and worries about every little concern so much more.
A really tiny anecdotal example, I know, but in their cases, having dh there every minute of the day hasn't really helped her grow into motherhood at all, and definitely hasn't helped with her meeting other parents of similar aged dc.

So still, why should I give up my leave?

Yes it needs to be longer. I say this as someone who needed 2 c sections and needed help with recovery. DH’s work increased paternity leave from 2 to 6 weeks just after my last maternity leave finished.

When I had my eldest it was 6 weeks 90% pay and 12 weeks statutory. It’s definitely improved a lot since then! But even when I had my youngest 10 years ago I got 9 months and dh got a week, he took a second week holiday and it was hard when he went back to work. I did lots of groups and made friends for support

So well put. One huaband, even if that husband is excellent, engaged, etc is not a village. Much better I think to have and to help create a web of friendships and contacts and supports from which everyone can benefit, including those who are single or who have disengaged partners. Social capital vs relying on one person. It was with children of 5 and 9 but I coukdn't get over the difference the first time I went abroad on holidays as a single mum vs when I went with my ex husband. I had multiple great conversations at plagrounds, attractions, cafes, etc with strangers, something which never happened when we presented as the typical enclosed nuclear family. I think there's something to be learned from that. The world is big and full of kind and interesting people, some of whom could become great friends. Sitting in some sort of bubble with a devoted Dad personally sounds very suffocating (which I acceot may be a me problem) but I think few could argue that the world and our fanilies need more connection and love. Some of the friendships I formed way back then in my childrens early years remain and my children benefit greatly from having unrelated adults whi care about them and their welfare, as I do about their children.

Having my husband at home for 6 weeks paternity leave (rather than the 2 weeks he got when we had our first 2) definitely didn’t stop me getting out to groups/meeting people/building a network. It did however mean that all the housework was done and meals were cooked while I was out or breastfeeding!
Lockdown starting when DS was 6 months old certainly affected my support network though 😏

An increasing number of companies have much better paternity packages than the UK minimum. DH had six months' paid paternity from a large UK employer (I still had my full entitlement). It's quite common in his field.

However my experience of mat leave was very different from your description. We are Londoners and often spent much of the day out and about, taking advantage of mat leave to go out to interesting exhibitions, meals out and events with the baby, bring your baby films/comedy/walks/yoga, and different baby classes every day. DH and I had a lovely time spending time together with the baby in tow and I didn't see the point in just sitting at home all day when we had all that free time.

When DH was wfh (after paternity leave) I never needed or expected him to help out in the home during working hours, I managed things like cooking and using the bathroom using baby chairs, and she came with me everywhere on errands (I did the big shop online). I was always happy with taking the baby out on my own and exploring the city, and didn't need DH or family around to keep us company or help. I think most women are able to just get on with it and deal with normal chores and activities with a baby in tow without another adult there to help. For us it was more about bonding and establishing a relationship. DH spent every day of his paternity leave with us as a family and didn't go off doing hobbies or spending time with mates, and he has a brilliant relationship with the dcs now.

@Jacksandy You do know not every dad is employed by a big company don’t you?! What about business owners? What about SMEs? How do they cope with someone being absent for 6 months for maybe 3 times? It’s not remotely possible! It’s separating dads out into middle class and everyone else! And neither is 6 months remotely necessary.

I don’t agree it’s too short and nor would I be happy to pay more taxes to fund a longer leave. Many families are already struggling enough with the tax they pay as it is
and yet they talk of putting it up more so it’s not as if there is a surplus. Not to mention people dying in corridors in A&E. Shared parental leave already exists so couples already have that option to use their year’s leave as they wish. My DH went back to work after 2-4 weeks, he’s a great dad but that was enough for me. He worked away from when the children were a few weeks old and yet has a fantastic bond with them. I managed on my own with a 1 month old baby and older children. Why on earth should both parents be getting prolonged leave at the same time and companies giving dad’s 6 months fully paid paternity leave and bereaved staff or staff etc only 2 weeks! Getting to know other new mothers was the sanity saver for me and time with friend’s on their days off etc

Why should employers have to pay because people want to have children?

It is a choice

Another post to highlight shared parental leave. Check the employment handbook, it’s normally past the paternity leave section, and much more generous.

My company gives men or women that take it six months full pay. My partner got five months full pay with our first and three and a half months full pay with our second (different companies). A lot of employers are equalising it. Quite a few of my friends did it also, and the paid portion varied from two months to six months generally for men.

We used ours to go travelling for some of it both times, and those are some of the most special memories for us

Why should us as a family who already pay 20k+ a year in tax but struggle to afford the basics pay for 2 people to sit at home caring for one baby. I don’t mind paying for the standard 2 weeks for dads or 6 weeks of leave paid for a dad (or anyone else - grandma etc) to support a mum after a C section, don’t mind paying for both parents to be off while baby in NICU but sorry tax payer funded post baby prolonged honeymoons is taking the biscuit My own father worked full time and get didn’t struggle to bond with us and was a fantastic father, as does my DH,

Well off families get two parents off on full pay for months.

Poorer families... one parent on SMP while other works overtime to make ends meet.

And in the meantime OP, who is running companies, producing things, staffing critical services and keeping the money rolling in to pay for maternity/paternity leave? Companies are struggling with the cost of employing people as it is.

Maternity leave enables the mum to recover from birth and then for one parent to stay with the child during that critical first year. It doesn't take two adults to cope with one tiny baby.

I was lonely on maternity leave too, and mum&baby groups weren't really my thing so I organised activities that I did enjoy. I'm a grown up, a parent. I didn't need someone to hold my hand 24/7.

No doubt the cost is passed on to the customers of those companies too. If I was a dad working for one of those companies think I’d have about 10 children with getting 6 months off fully paid without having to go through the pregnancy, birth and having wife off at the same time too

‘Wait until the boomers die off’…… I’m one apparently. Thanks.

@PollyBell And why should companies pay for parents to go travelling! The rich just get richer! Absolutely impossible for small companies to allow this and what about the self employed and business owners who are the business backbone of this country?

Presumably those companies have to manage if they employ a woman and she takes maternity leave though. Obviously it’s inconvenient but we know it’s possible because we force companies by law to make provision for women to do it.

All the farmers wives reading this thread and thinking well at least we got a few hours after the birth before DH had to crack on with work (I say this as a farmers wife who went into labour early, right in the middle of harvest) but no doubt on MN will be told, having children is a choice so basically, suck it up buttercup.

Yet another thing that is my fault! Is there anything you won't blame boomers for?! I intend to live till well into my 90s just to annoy you.

I think it would be a great idea. Especially as it might also go some way to stopping some men frothing at the mouth about how women ruin businesses by having babies.

Although I suppose the issue with paternity over maternity is technically a bloke could get a new woman pregnant every 3 months and just eternally be applying for paternity leave. Women are limited to one full term pregnancy per year which naturally spaces even the most virulent out.

A farm is a business. I presume that the farmer is the business owner. Meaning it would be his responsibility to hire someone to take over his job for his paternity leave using the income from his business. As all business owners do.

Your husband should have tried to organise cover.

@fiveyo Yes. But women might be 50% of the workforce! This adds in the other 50% potentially.

Some firms make little extra provision above the statutory amount of pay and leave too. It’s been a known cost for decades for women and of course some companies are mostly men, eg engineering. It’s a massive cost to
lump on them unexpectedly and that’s on top of extra NI and wage costs to keep the best staff. It’s simply not ok in a smaller company to give 6 months on full pay and then find out the family has swanned off on holiday. It’s not acceptable to older members of staff, those without dc and those having to cover the work.

Plus you might think that man wasn’t a possibility for promotion which is something women already face and that’s why many men don’t want 6 months off! They need to prioritise earnings and promotion. It’s only the minority of men who will feel they can disappear for 6 months. Plus, many men are great dads without costing their companies vast amounts of money.

Yes and while we can barely afford to take our kids away for 1 week in a caravan in the UK despite us both earning good salaries, we’ll be paying for a richer couple to have time off to go travelling every time they have a baby. What is even more of a joke is I know of couples who did this and then split up a year later and the dad doesn’t bother at all, despite his extended paternity leave. Not the only dad I know who had extended time off due to one reason or another but is now a half arsed dad. Then there’s my DH who had the usual 2 weeks and is still grafting hard for his children then comes homes and is there for them and me

I think parental leave and pay in the uk is pretty good. Genuinely how much do people expect to get paid by their employer for being off work? It’s better than sick pay, and unlike having children, sickness is something that generally isn’t planned for