Paternity leave is too short- will it ever change?

[pisces5891]

I'm really interested in people's views on paternity leave and extending it the UK like they have in the nordic countries.

For context im 3 months post partum and my husband wfh. It's made a huge difference to my mental health to have another adult around during the day, and he's super hands on. For example, he will hold her while i use bathroom, do a call, pop to the shops, make lunch etc, so i really have the feeling of having a lot of help. Of course he focuses on work for the majority of the day. But I think if he wasnt there, id feel so lonely and occasionally really overwhelmed. I feel really lucky to have that support. I read an article about how in sweden they linked longer paternity leave with a huge decrease in post natal depression in women.

It got me thinking about the fact that in the UK, the majority of tiny baby care is done by a mum who likely spends quite a bit of the day alone (i.e. no close family to help out everyday, husband out at work etc). Thats certainly true of my nct class. You might see people at baby classes etc, but generally it's a lone task. Grandparents might help ocasionally, but its not the norm to get help daily.

To me, that's such an unhappy state of affairs. Children used to be raised in villages, and my experience with my own daughter is that id be so lonely if dh wasnt around. It makes me want to join the campaign to extend paternity leave. However, that campaign seems a but under supported in the UK compared to nordic countries? I saw a picture of a protest and there were about 20 people there🙄. Some of the women i know kind of accept that it's there job to watch baby, and that there's some biological and economic sense in men going back to work quite soon, and they can cope alone. But i don't want to just cope! I think looking after a baby as a couple is just much much nicer.

Really curious to hear peoples thoughts on this. Do we think there's a culture in the UK of accepting paternity leave as it is? What kind of paternity leave would you have wanted your dh to have? What would have been the ideal?

I know sometimes people say that if your bresdtfeeding , it makes sense for mum to be main carer..i disagree with this. I breastfeed, and i still want the help and the company!

I think it's a personal thing and depends on the mum, the baby and the way your home works. I was very happily married when DD was born, but I did not feel I wanted or would have benefitted from him being around more or longer on paternity leave.

It got me thinking about the fact that in the UK, the majority of tiny baby care is done by a mum who likely spends quite a bit of the day alone (i.e. no close family to help out everyday, husband out at work etc). Thats certainly true of my nct class.

Anecdotally, mine has been the absolute opposite. In the early days, grandparents seemed to be around daily, even if they lived an hour or so away. Even now when our eldest kids are 4 and 5, they have two or three days a week childcare from grandparents, and often visits and help at the weekend too.

There's a lot of pressure to increase paternity leave but there's also been a lot of increases to the costs of having staff recently, and small businesses wouldn't cope without some reimbursement from the government. Bigger companies are starting to make changes - John Lewis offers six months fully paid and has for at least 5 years, for example. The Government probably won't make any changes particularly fast because we do not have a lot of money, as a country, and we're already in a lot of debt.

The Nordic countries are great but they are anomalies. Sweden offers 480 days, with 90 for each parent, to encourage dads to take their share. Bulgaria offers 58.6 weeks to mums, but only 15 days to dads. Estonia offers 20 weeks to mums and 30 days to dads... Spain offers 16 weeks to both parents but it's non-transferable. You're paid at 100% but then you're back at work when baby is 3 months old. The US has no statutory requirements, and FMLA is 12 weeks unpaid.

The other consideration is that overall, countries that have extended paternity leave have done it by increasing the ability to share leave, rather than adding it alongside maternity leave - so dads can stay at home and bond more, but mum is back at work instead, you've essentially swapped care.

I agree 2 weeks is too short. 8 weeks, spread across the first 2 years would be better.

Most of these threads conflate paternity leave with paternity pay. All parents are entitled to unpaid leave, it’s the need for it to be paid that’s usually the issue for families.

From a small business perspective, I can’t afford to pay for extended maternity or paternity leave. And definitely not for both parents to be off at the same time (which seems to be what you’re suggesting?). Equally the government and overall economy can’t afford to have a 2:1 adult child ratio either. It may well be “nicer” but it’s an indulgence which needs to be planned and saved for by the couple.

We did shared parental leave so my OH had 6 months off with me. He then took additional unpaid leave when I went back to work after 7 months.

I strongly believe that changes in parental / paternity leave are a key driver in tackling the ‘default parent’ trap so many women find themselves in. It’

Unfortunately, although shared parental leave is now a legal right, not many men take it up. That’s for various reasons -
it relies on the mother sacrificing some of her maternity leave and not all women want to.
if the Father is the higher earner and his employer doesn’t offer good parental leave pay then it might be too ‘expensive’ for him to take much time off.
Culturally it can feel difficult for men to take time out, depending on their industry. Unfortunately some men worry about not being seen as serious or ambitious if they op to take leave.

it’s a really interesting area of public policy I think.

I think its changing slowly. My cousin works for a company that gave him 10 months fully paid leave. His wife only got statutory entitlement.

I’d love to see longer paternity leave and for that leave to be able to be taken up to the child’s second birthday. So parents could stagger their leave. I’d also love that the mother doesn’t have to give up any of her leave to enable this.

However, I feel that men need to be the ones fighting for this. Let’s be honest here, we’ve had two sitting prime ministers become dads while in office, most CEOs are men, if they wanted this, they’d have it. They don’t have it because they know how much damage it does to women’s careers to go on maternity leave.

So we need some men who realise this and are prepared to fight for it.

I'm in favor of paternity leave although my DH's colleague didn't use his for the purpose it was intended.

We're in the US and paternity leave longer than a week is a new thing here. DH's company gives 12 weeks, and his colleague was allowed to take a week off every month for a year. He openly admitted that he spent alot of it playing golf! His wife works so presumably they had childcare sorted out and I'm sure he spent some time with the baby. They're still together (this was a couple of years ago) so it worked for them.

There is shared parental leave- I used it with ex DP for DD who is now 10. I had 9 months off & he had the last 3. I don’t know why more people don’t use it.

Because why should I give up my leave?

Also, often the policies mean that that those 3 months are unpaid which a lot of families can’t afford.

Personally I never felt I needed it - two weeks seemed plenty and I was keen for him to go back to work so life could return to the new normal

much of that longer paternity leave though is taken from the mother’s time. It’s not concurrent, it is sequential. I do
think men should have a good chunk of time off, but not at the expense of women having a maternity leave.

Only the woman who gives birth can breastfeed. Parents are not interchangeable in the beginning. The father or second mother is there for support.

one starting point might be the right to use all available annual leave as paternity leave without restrictions on scheduling. That would allow longer paid stays home at the beginning.

I would be very supportive of a paternity leave specifically after the mother returns to work. Not taken from the mothers allowance, but not concurrent with.

I also think that both parents of a baby in premature care should have paid parental leave before the maternity/paternity allowance kicks in.

I think two weeks is ok in most circumstances, but if you’ve had a sick mother or baby who doesn’t leave hospital for two weeks, then it’s pretty much wasted. In those circumstances I think there should be exceptions and a longer paid period given. I don’t think there was any paid paternity leave when my dc were born, and maternity leave was six months, mostly unpaid.

Parents with a baby admitted to the NICU already get up to 12 weeks (I think) additional leave.

This with bells on.

Also, small business really need help and support with this. We’d love to offer paid mat and pat leave (above statutory) but just cannot afford it.

I also think you raise a really good point that it used to be a village that raised a child. We are so removed from what a supportive community can be it’s unreal. We can do so much better. Our church is fab - when someone has a baby they don’t cook for 6 weeks - meals are delivered daily by all sorts of people. Acquaintances from church will come and mow your lawn. Friends will pop round and mind the baby for a few hours and clean the kitchen whilst you sleep. None of which need paternity leave but does need a cracking community.

I always think it's a bit of a red flag when people wouldn't want their partner to be home longer, financial stuff aside.
either for him cos you know he's useless and will make life harder for you, or he'll expect more sex etc cos he's "helping", or for her cos it's "her" baby and now he's given over his sperm he isn't really wanted of needed. ven if it's about Mom needing to bond the most, surely a partner at home for longer is preferable cos then you can focus on baby not all the other stuff.

I had a poorly baby so DH took 2 weeks whilst we had the hardest bit of hospital, then 2 weeks leave once we were finally home. then I had twins so his two weeks took us to Xmas close down and then he had another week, so 5 in total. followed shortly by the apocalypse, I mean COVID, where he worked from home but meant he could sort older kid until later of a morning, could come down and make lunch every day, and was down with us earlier cos no commute. I hated COVID but I'm grateful the timing fell like it did

that's very new tho

Maternity leave is too short in general. Paternity leave is diabolical! My DH is loving snuggling with our little bumble bee and feeding her. He's dreading going back to work as am I.

We hate the idea of going to work to pay someone else to raise her.

I honestly don't think it will change until at least the boomers die off. We need people in work to pay their pensions so there's no incentive to keep people out work for little, trivial things like raising children.

Shared parental leave exists, use that.

My husband got 6 weeks with our third. It was lovely in the sense that we sat around for 6 weeks watching TV and dozing in between feeds while the elder 2 were at school and nursery, but to be honest I’d rather he was able to take it a bit later when the initial newborn doziness had worn off!

@pisces5891 Children were raised in villages? You believe this rubbish! Yes, dc roamed the streets and played out late but no one else took care of them! My DM was born over 100 years ago and my grandad made her work on their tenanted farm or sell milk and eggs on a Saturday morning. She was even made to stone picking in the fields. No idyllic village raising for her. Poor people were too busy working to feed themselves! Its rose tinted spectacle nonsense. The grammar school she went to even wrote to my grandad asking if she could be excused farm work so she could do her homework! People like them didn’t raise village dc. They had enough with 6 of their own and no one else cared.

Paternity leave. Lucky dh working from home. I guess he’s not in the army then or the police. How does this work for the millions of self employed men? The people who actually run businesses. Do they stop running the business? Who pays their staff and their bills? Great for those who are employed having a wfh contract, the rest are second class citizens and don’t. What about them?

My (ex!) husband would have driven me mad because he was such a faffer and I just know would have drifted through it and/or started and not finished DIY or projects. I breastfed so no help there. I like the idea of having support and care around but truthfully, don't know many men who are all that great at it. I also really don't think it needs two people full time for weeks on end to mind a baby, or even when there is more than one child. I'm a 'get up and get on with' kind of person so it all seems a bit feeble to be honest..

This is a really good point. This kind of thing seems like yet another advantage that children growing up in middle class homes will have. Inevitably, it is professional class, white collar men who will - or will be able - to avail of this kind of thing.

Same!

DH had the time of his life. He was a slightly older first time dad and did things he would never have imagined doing, going to the aquarium, to farms, to a dad and baby swimming group where he is still in touch with the other men years on.

Because why should I give up my leave?

Because it doesn't take two people to look after a 9 month old child every day, maybe ?