How to handle a 12-year-old refusing to accept a ‘NO’?

[YellowMellow99]

I’m looking for some advice please. TIA for your help and please be kind. 🙏🏼
Our 12.5 year old DD latched on to the idea of going to an activity this summer that DH (her father) and I deemed age inappropriate. We explained this to her and said no. We said she can choose another activity.
She’s completely refusing to take no for an answer and has been really upset, angry, uncooperative and argumentative.
It’s tempting to give in to her but that’s what DH used to do and look where that got us!
DD is very smart and (like any tween/teen her age) can be quite manipulative to get her way. She refuses to help with anything, unpack her things (we just moved house a month ago), she’s also not looking after her pets. She says she’d do more if we take her to this event but we already said no and explained why. DH and I have a united front. DD is generally lazy as DH used to just do stuff for her and she soon learned that she should ‘just enjoy being a child’. DH came to realise that this was not a good idea and we are trying to change things and get DD take on more responsibilities (at least tidy up after herself and look after some of her pets) but she’s just very demanding, doesn’t do things unless she gets something out of it, and she can be uncooperative and difficult.
I think DH doing everything for her made her quite spoiled and she’s our only child so that probably didn’t help either.
I’m giving all this as a background information.
She said she’ll be miserable and upset while summer and not talk to us, unless we take her to the event.
I had physically and emotionally abusive parents and I always wanted to do my best for my child. She knows I’m always here and she can talk to me any time. DH and I both love her so much.
I’m looking for advice on how to deal with this and how to help her through it. We already explained to her why we said no, she’s not accepting, and we also explained it to her that in life sometimes you just don’t get what you want and you need to be okay with that and that’s what resilience is. I think she might be influenced by others too. She is not allowed on SM and only has WhatsApp for the last month or so.
Thank you!

Yes, I agree, and I do say to her that if you make the wrong choice, there will be )and there IS!) a consequence, yet she still says that I am the one choosing to punish her! She doesn’t see that it is her actions that have a consequence and she is told in advance that there will be a consequence so she can make the right decision.

She refuses to believe that it’s her choice when she’s miserable. She says it’s my fault because I didn’t let her do something (in this case).
I’ve explained to her that it’s up to her how she sees things and what she focuses on and that this might not have gone her way but there are plenty of great things she can focus on and be happy, but she just focuses on the negative and blames others. I don’t know what she’s like this, I always look for the good in things and so does DH.

Wow you are in for a fun next few years 😆

You really do need to put your foot down now or it’s just going to get harder

defin much less phone. DD is 13 nearly 14 and has 2 hrs screen time each evening - that includes both phone and tv. Certain apps are allowed any time of day but with a total time cap. Giving a 12 yo a phone “to unwind” or “for MH support” nope. She can listen to the radio on the way to ballet. She can talk to whichever parent is kindly driving her!

Re the activity argument: grey rock. “I’ve said no that’s the end of it.” Try to be unbothered by the fact she is upset and angry. If she’s like my DD she’s probably more bothered about having lost the argument than about the activity. If she says I hate you, you say well that’s a shame or that’s not very nice, I’m going.

Pets: won’t add to what others have said.

Of course you love her but part of parenting (and because you love them) is making sure they don’t turn into brats who nobody likes.

I don’t know how to do this in practical terms, especially that she has homework set on her phone and she also uses it to communicate with primary school friends.
I wish I never gave in to DH, I didn’t want her to have a smart phone till she was 16!

She probably needs to realise that being "miserable and upset" is a "her" problem. Obviously if you'd rather she was happy but if she choose to wallow in it rather than getting on with her life, that's her choice but ultimately the only person who suffers is her.

As for not talking, point out to her that giving someone the silent treatment is sometimes regarded as abusive but again it won't make any difference to your decision and you have plenty of other people who will speak to you so you'll probably be just fine, but re assure her you'll be there when she's ready to apologise and move on.

Don’t try and argue or explain too much. That’s my nature too but it wins no battles.

State your case and then leave her to stew (WITHOUT HER PHONE). At some point your words may come back to her and she may - internally - recognise you have a point. Not that she’ll tell you this!

What immediate consequence would you think would be appropriate? Thank you

Are you absolutely sure that the homework isn't accessible on a computer that you can have in a common area? If not can you explain the logistics of this homework on the phone situation and maybe we can help with alternatives?

Edited to add a thought - can you access it on your phone?

But she is running rings around you!
You are so passive, I can’t believe she has got to twelve and you are asking such basic questions on a forum.
She’s already acting like a brat . You need to find a spine and lose your shit like other posters have said.
She’d be lucky to get on her holiday with this behaviour.

I’m so bad with tech, I set up her iPhone screentime but she is on it a lot and I put limits on apps, I don’t know how she can be using it so much! I need to find out how to limit the total time she can use it for!

She says Chat GPT is her only support and I don’t know how to take it away. She doesn’t talk about her feelings much even though I do talk with her a lot and she knows I’m always available! I only saw her Chat GPT history for the first time tonight after she said about using Chat GPT for emotional support, I thought she was just using it to look things up, I was totally surprised!

Her phone is locked down from 7:45pm till 7:45am every night.

She doesn’t use other screens (ie tablet/ipad) TV goes off an hour before bed and she’s allowed to read her Kindle or a book.

@YellowMellow99 I've sent you a PM with info on you requested. :)

@YellowMellow99you sound like a lovely, kind and caring Mum, however probably a little bit too soft, (like me)!

I think if it's suspected ADHD/ASD and she already has anxiety then maybe that's why you tend to over compensate for her, and let her get away with quite a lot.

I honestly think that you and your husband have done the right thing by saying that she can't attend, you've already explained your reasons to her why, So just don't engage in any more reactions to her typical teenage stroppy behaviour at not getting what she wants.

My almost 14 year-old sounds very similar to your daughter. She can be incredibly stubborn, can act like a bit of a brat. She does have diagnosed ASD and anxiety and can be quite manipulative but she's also quite insecure and she doesn't like feeling out of control., It's quite difficult having a child with these needs because they're almost like a contradiction and most usual punishments don't tend to work.

I've learnt over the years that you must stay 100% firm, no negotiation when you've said no and you've given a valid reason. You don't need to keep going on giving further punishments for her behaviour because she's choosing to behave like that, just cause she's not getting her way, so don't let it bother you, if she's rude and stroppy and says she doesn't want to talk to you just say "ok" and get on with whatever you were doing.

Reacting and constantly giving punishments or consequences for how she's choosing to react to be told no just prolongs it. Your daughter has every right to feel upset her that she's not going to the activity she really want to go to, but you can't control her reaction to it only the way that you react to her.

sorry for the long winded post, but hopefully it makes some kind of sense
Good luck, it's not easy!

DH thinks I’m too strict!
I have plenty of spine thank you, but it is hard when your other half allows things and you’re always the bad guy already.
If it was up to me, she wouldn’t have a smart phone and she’d be doing chores. DH would always do things for her when I asked her to do them because she’d be whinging, I’d insist and he has no tolerance for arguments so he’d just go and do it. I’ve told him many times that we needed to prepare her for life and she has to chip in and do things but he’d still do it.
I think there is no shame in asking for advice and you don’t have to give any if you don’t have anything helpful or kind to say.

ChatGPT is harmful. You need to act. It needs to be deleted from her phone and her phone needs to be locked down so she can't download it again. You can get help online with this or take it to an Apple store.

It's not her only support. She can message actual, human, trained counsellors at Childline or Sidekick (for example). I don't even live in the UK but did a quick Google - it wasn't difficult!

Thank you so much, that’s really helpful, I appreciate it!
I’m sorry you’re having similar difficulties, I feel heard and understood by you and some of the other helpful, kind, understanding Mums here.
I hear what you’re saying, and agree that she’s allowed to feel how she feels, is there anything I can do to help her feel better or more positive? She doesn’t think I understand how she feels, even though I could say back to her what she told me earlier, to show her that just because I disagree, it doesn’t mean I don’t understand her.
She completely latched on to this and fixated on it. 😳

Chat GPT recommended those to her and SHOUT and some others too, but DD said one of them was during certain hours only and with others there were waiting times. I have tried using SHOUT 2x before. First time I had to wait over an hour for reply and the reply was telling me to google it, the second time nobody replied at all! It’s really poor!
She said to Chat GPT that she wanted to go to a counsellor and Chat GPT recommended a few. She emailed one of them from what I could see.
She was referred to CAMHS by her school learning mentor and I hope they can help her with the anxiety and any other issues!

I'm getting quite anxious reading this, I can't imagine what it's like for a neurodiverse 12yo in such a rudderless household. I won't keep harping on at you after this post I promise, I don't think it's doing either of us any good

It's OK to wait awhile for a reply. Who taught her that it has to be instant or nothing?

She's 12 and she's emailing counsellors herself and having her thoughts shaped by a chatbot; this isn't just a tween spat about being told no, it's really dangerous and you are being, and I mean this respectfully I really do, WAY too passive about it. You seem to have all the excuses in the world for not stepping up and taking control of this situation.

I think you might benefit from counselling yourself to help with your self-doubt and reluctance to assert yourself, but don't let that stop you from taking some sort of action NOW, please.

Your desire to help her feel better is deep-seated guilt showing itself. It's also a sign that you don't have the confidence you should have that your daughter and the relationship will survive this.

You would do yourself and your daughter and the relationship you have with her a huge favour by expecting resilience, compliance, and an end to the monumental strop she is inflicting on you and her father (and her poor pets).

It is not the end of the world if this child feels sad, angry, disappointed, or any other negative emotion. You need to show her that you are not afraid of her and not afraid of her emotions, and that she can hear the word no and life still goes on.

In other words - do not try to make her feel better. She will correctly I terpret this as weakness on your part. And will respond with even more contempt than she is currently showing. Let her stew.

She's like this because you have always tried to make her feel better when she experienced negative emotions. You are wringing your hands here about how to make her feel better.

Your husband can't tolerate arguments and you can't deal with her sadness. The result is a 12 year old who has never learned to deal with either consequences or her own feelings. She is likely extremely anxious because her parents have never provided a solid surface for her to butt her head against.

Someone upthread used the term 'rudderless household' and that sums up the problem.

The answer to all her accusations is, "I'm sorry you feel that way".

Stop explaining yourself.

You’re right I guess. What I was doing is Co regulating with her because she couldn’t deal with big feelings (ADHD - I had this issue too and I had to learn to self regulate as an adult, only a few years ago, because my feelings were made fun of and disregarded when I was a child). Co regulating and teaching how to self regulate is what we advise parents to do in these situations. DD learned pretty well how to self regulate by now, but she’s not very expressive/self aware of her feelings and she’s masking a lot due to ADHD (again, I’m familiar with this due to having the same issue). I don’t have an issue with her not feeling okay and I don’t want to make her feel better, that’s not the issue. The issue is that she’s not taking no for an answer.

My husband has an issue with her refusing to do something she was asked to do and me having the expectation that she’ll have to do it, leading to an argument. So he often just did what I was asking DD to do (simple things like pick your clothes off the floor or put your plate in the dish washer, or throw away your rubbish) which was really not helpful!

I don’t know what ‘rudderless’ means - I’ll look it up, I’m not a native English speaker.

This thread is another reminder of why not to get my kids a phone until much later.

I’d be telling her to get used to feeling upset. Tbf it’s good training for the real world. You’ve said no and it’s not going to change. She can look at age-appropriate alternatives or miss out, but she is going to have to accept that she is making choices that affect your decision-making. If she bangs on about the activity you have refused to allow, then there will be no activity. That’s how you learn to understand choices and consequences as well as accountability.
Also, the hamster and bunnies probably need to be rehomed to someone willing to put the work in.

I know the behaviour is an issue, like 75% of the posters, we are a nosy bunch.

Does she want to attend a PRIDE event local to you?

I’m thinking this is it.