How to handle a 12-year-old refusing to accept a ‘NO’?

[YellowMellow99]

I’m looking for some advice please. TIA for your help and please be kind. 🙏🏼
Our 12.5 year old DD latched on to the idea of going to an activity this summer that DH (her father) and I deemed age inappropriate. We explained this to her and said no. We said she can choose another activity.
She’s completely refusing to take no for an answer and has been really upset, angry, uncooperative and argumentative.
It’s tempting to give in to her but that’s what DH used to do and look where that got us!
DD is very smart and (like any tween/teen her age) can be quite manipulative to get her way. She refuses to help with anything, unpack her things (we just moved house a month ago), she’s also not looking after her pets. She says she’d do more if we take her to this event but we already said no and explained why. DH and I have a united front. DD is generally lazy as DH used to just do stuff for her and she soon learned that she should ‘just enjoy being a child’. DH came to realise that this was not a good idea and we are trying to change things and get DD take on more responsibilities (at least tidy up after herself and look after some of her pets) but she’s just very demanding, doesn’t do things unless she gets something out of it, and she can be uncooperative and difficult.
I think DH doing everything for her made her quite spoiled and she’s our only child so that probably didn’t help either.
I’m giving all this as a background information.
She said she’ll be miserable and upset while summer and not talk to us, unless we take her to the event.
I had physically and emotionally abusive parents and I always wanted to do my best for my child. She knows I’m always here and she can talk to me any time. DH and I both love her so much.
I’m looking for advice on how to deal with this and how to help her through it. We already explained to her why we said no, she’s not accepting, and we also explained it to her that in life sometimes you just don’t get what you want and you need to be okay with that and that’s what resilience is. I think she might be influenced by others too. She is not allowed on SM and only has WhatsApp for the last month or so.
Thank you!

You don't have to keep answering her when she keeps asking why she can't go. You can tell her (once) you are no longer discussing it and that if she brings it up again you won't answer. And do that. I imagine she's hoping that if she keeps asking you'll change your mind, so to her it's worth asking again and again.
(Just read the bit about ADHD waiting list. This is highly typical of ADHD - she will enjoy the dopamine rush from arguing. Go and look up ADHD Dude who has a few YouTubes about this).

The op has done such a great job of raising a spoilt brat that any protestation of I'll never speak to you again should be met with thank goodness.

Why are you all so afraid of twelve year olds. You really think they'll be psychologically damaged by being told no and that no one cares about their idle threats

Stay calm is really important you need to be as boring as with this. Be completely normal and get on with your lives. She can handle this ‘no’.
Some kids are just like this , very bloody determined. Other kids are just more mouldable.
good luck , presumably at some point thd event will be past.

Is she bored in the holidays btw? Does being at school suit her more ?

Chat GTP for mental health support in a teen is VERY unhealthy. delete the app and forbid her from using it. there are teens in the USA who have ended their lives after 'support' from ChatGTP, and others who spiraled into psychosis. It can seem helpful but can also reinforce unhealthy ideas and make things worse.

for example, if she tells ChatGTP "my parents are unfair and won't let me got to the event", it is likely to say back "you poor thing why not ask them again and use this argument ..."

Delete ChatGTP - please

Argh I didn’t think about disallowing her to meet her friend, I should have. Especially that this friend is not a good influence as DD seems more rude after spending time with her.
She’d have gone ballistic if I told her she couldn’t meet her friend.

If losing her phone for a day is not enough, what would you suggest?
She already makes it out that I’m too strict and DH is definitely too soft for sure. I’m always the bad guy 🥴 but I tell her I’m doing what I think is the best for her even if she doesn’t agree.

She's in really deep with the phone, you have some tough decisions to make!

Whatever it is you're doing now to restrict access after 7.45pm, whether that's an app or physically taking it from her, I would do the minute she walks in the door from school.

She can do her homework, her pet chores and anything else you want done before she gets it back.

Same in the car and on weekends. Just take it or block it at the start and she earns it. Responsibilities first, rewards follow - at the moment you have things arse about. She wants to decompress, she can look out the window.

You can explain to her (truthfully) that the amount of screen time she's getting is harmful to her developing brain and to her psychological health. That it's your job as the adult and her parent to protect her from poor decisions she's making for herself.

Any tantrumming etc and she loses it for the whole day.

She already has anxiety and quite likely ADHD. I don’t think belittling her would do any good…

This^^

It's perfectly possible to tell a child a firm "no" without descending to viciousness - that just speaks of a lack of self-control, which is the last thing the OP should be modelling.

She should not be using chatgpt for mental health support. It is so dangerous. Honestly put a stop to that. I would lock her phone down massively so she can use apps to communicate directly with her friends. So WhatsApp and text, I would block chatgpt and block her from downloading new apps.

I'd re-home the animals personally. You don't buy animals for kids.

In terms of "well I'll just stay in my room being mardy"! "Ok, if thats what you want to do." I'd put her boxes in her room, leave her to it.

You're letting her do alot of dictating. DS asks and asks for stuff. I say "you've asked, I've answered, I'm not talking about it any more." You don't keep explaining yourself over and over. You've said why. She knows why. It's no longer up for discussion.

I used to think it was shitty parenting to say "because I said so!" But then you have a kid that asks the same question over and over no matter how much you've explained. Now you get one explanation. And that is it. "I've already told you why" "what did I tell you the first time you asked... So why would that change just because you've asked again?"

Quite.

Too much screen time, devices overnight, few boundaries, zero responsibilities, psychological advice from a bot?!

These things are not good for anxiety and ADHD! You may well find that if you tackle them properly the anxiety and suspected ADHD behaviours will cease to be a problem.

So what if she goes ballistic? She's your child, not your boss. You're in charge.

If you choose to teach her discipline and that actions have consequences, she'll kick off for a while but eventually she'll get used to it and will have learned valuable lessons.

No 12 year old should have a smart phone. Dumb phone all the way, that's what I suggest.

Smart phones are so damaging for intelligence, brain development and mental health.

I would recommend The Social Dilemma on Netflix if you haven't seen it.

You have created this situation by giving in to her over and over. Parenting is hard,you have to start it when they are small, not when they are 12. Do not engage in the conversation with her anymore.

My DD is the same age and we get similar behaviour. I think protest and complaint is to be expected, but the endless nagging, rudeness and refusal to do chores is not OK. I’d definitely be saying “Whenever you come home from hanging out with [girl] you are particularly rude to me and given you’re already being rude I’m not prepared to let you go and have that get worse.” My daughter’s moods are also worsened by screen time of all kinds, so I cut that out for the same reason if she’s being rude. She doesn’t get it back after a day, she gets it back after a full few days of changed behaviour. That includes the end of constantly arguing with me about things.

This is absolutely true!
Thank you, I’ll take a look. 🙏🏼🌷

I do think a few people are being a bit mean to the Op and piling on a bit.

It's really bloody hard to parent when you've had a crappy upbringing. You don't have a barometer for what is ok and what's going to work. You obviously know that launching your child down the stairs is bad! Definitely don't do that. But actually if your only frame of reference is "hell we can't do that" it's really hard to know where on that scale is ok and how to do it when you've never had it modelled. Throw in you having a desire to give your child everything you never had/experienced and you have a perfect storm if you get a child who's wilful. By the time you realise, you're here and having to figure out how the hell to unpick it all and a child who will come across as they hate you so much (and when you know that depth of hate for your own parents for how they behaved, you want to avoid your own child feeling like that about you - even though it's actually very different).

Op I do get it, I was in the same place as you guys a year ago. I got myself some excellent parenting help 121 and changed everything for us both. It's still not perfect, but it's unrecognisable from what it was.

Being calm and consistent was huge. Agreeing consequences with her in the calmer moments so when she did the thing I said for her not to do, she knew what was coming.
Listen to some of what she's saying. My DD gets exhausted by school. I know now any attempt from me other than a hey hope your day went well for at least an hour after school will result in aggy responses. She just needs to decompress after the day. But in return I give her the hour, but then expect her down for dinner and then she will chat at that point.

Anyway, I could be massively wide of the mark, but reading what you've said and how you end up being the bad one and you've both let stuff go seems similar to what I did. I just wanted to say it can be fixed, it just takes a little patience.

Our intention was not to raise a spoilt brat, trust me, we say no to her a lot.
She is a strong willed, stubborn and intelligent child with excellent debating skills. Not the easiest to parent but we love her and it sounds like we need to tighten the ship.

"If you do that I'll never talk to you again"
No, if you refuse to show even the minimum love and care for your pets, they get rehomed. That is not something I am choosing, that is something you are choosing by neglecting small animals that depend on their owners for their livelihood. If you continue with this animal cruelty by wilfully, intentionally, knowingly starving them, to try and punish your parents, you are choosing to have them rehomed.

You are so spot on, thank you so much for your kind, helpful, insightful response! That’s absolutely the case with me and with DD too!
You know, the sad thing about the way I was parented is not that you hate your parents for what they did. But that you hate yourself!
I never ever wanted that for DD! I wanted a daughter so much and she’s God’s gift, even on a hard day I’d rather have her than not! I wanted her to always know that we love her and DH is the same. We do need to put much better boundaries in place, but you are right, it’s really hard to know what healthy boundaries are like when my own boundaries weee crossed all the time by my parents when I was a child.
So I really appreciate helpful responses like yours and practical advice too!
We did do a 2 year peaceful parenting coaching 121 and that helped a lot but that was before she became a tween and the hormones started to put a spin on things 🥴😓
May I ask where you got the help from? Thank you 🙏🏼

My daughter doesn’t have a smartphone no. We didn’t get her a phone at all until 6 weeks into Y7 then we got her a nokia.

We have a laptop and an ipad she is allowed to use including using whatsapp on my account to speak to friends. But every device apart from her brick phone has a passcode on that she doesn’t know and we only unlock it once she has done what we have asked her to do and if she asks politely.

I really recommend the book. It is helpful to understand the impact modern life is having on mental health of children and young people. I keep in mind that I want my daughter to be a competent, capable and pleasant adult. She knows that I am much stricter than other parents because I don’t want her to suffer the same mental health difficulties phones and social media cause other young people. I don’t regard myself as answerable to her now at her age for my decisions. I think about talking to her about it all at 25.

We generally have a good relationship and she has lots of our attention and support with her hobbies and activities. She has told me that when the class all fall out over whatsapp everyone is still speaking to her because she isn’t in any groups. She comments on her friends staring at phones and being phone zombies and has chosen to spend more time with those with better phone etiquette.

This, 100 times over….x

Yep, this.

She’s behaving like this because she can and she’s been led to believe this is the sort of thing she can negotiate over. She can’t. She needs a short sharp shock and if she cries or whatever, then good.

Also, she needs to be told that neglecting animals is despicable and cruel. She’s 12, not 5. She is capable of cleaning out gerbils or feeding the cat or whatever and if she doesn’t do it, they get rehomed.

My nieces and nephews cared for all their own pets from the age of around nine. Absolutely non-negotiable. I’d be ashamed of her for that.

I'll drop you a Pm :)

And yes on the hating yourself and a good chunk of self doubt in there too.

Your DD is being a moose, and testing you as it's worked in the past every time. But those stubborn headstrong qualities can be awesome too (even if you wish she'd channel them elsewhere at times). My DD is loyal to her friends, is the responsible one if the group, can get herself around and ask for help if needed when out, has avoided significant peer pressure for some big stuff and has told me about when it at home later on.