My daughter is out of control

[VV12]

Just spent the last 3 hours battling with my 9 year old daughter to go to bed, she still isn't sleeping.
It started with the wrong pyjama's, then there was too much toothpaste on her toothbrush, then she wanted the original pyjamas, then I told her no tv in bed because of the way she was speaking to me "shut up" "do this/that now" "your so mean" "your getting on my last nerve" "stop telling me what to do"
Then a whole other meltdown began because of the no tv which has resulted in a 3 hour screaming battle because she says she can't sleep without the tv, baby was woken up by the screaming, partner woke up, everyone's frustrated/upset and now she's laying in bed as calm as anything (but still awake) while I'm downstairs in absolute tears, wanting to bang my head against the wall in frustration, baby just settled back down and partner telling me that I need to sort her behaviour out as he can't live with her anymore (he's not her dad)
I really don't know what to do anymore her behaviour is completely out of control.
I highly suspect she has some form of ADHD/ODD (it's in the family) not just from the behaviour but she just can't listen to any sort of instruction, can't keep still, talks non stop, fidgets a lot etc
I have tried speaking to the school but of course "shes an angel" in school and the teacher made me feel like the whole conversation was pointless and as if im just exaggerating and basically told me that the gp will be a waste of time as she's fine in school.
She is very good at masking her behaviour in school but every single morning is an absolute nightmare, can't get her out of bed, gives me attitude/ back chat the whole time she's getting ready, as soon as she steps foot in the car after school it's like the whole days frustration just comes pouring out of her.
Don't really know what I want out of this thread, I'm just at a loss, what the hell can I do with this behaviour?
Nothing bothers her, she don't care if I take things off her, she don't care if I shout/tell her off, she don't care if I stop her going anywhere, if I tell her to go to her room for a time out she just looks at me and says no so I physically have to pick her up and place her in her room, then she just throws herself around the room in a rage for ages, these meltdowns can last hours.
absolutely nothing works!

You could contact Family Lives, they have a good helpline.

It's really hard isn't it

Does she see her father much?

your partner is rude btw… tell him to leave

Stop giving in in all respects she’s the boss

She sees her father every other weekend

Not heard of this, thank you

Also I get my partners frustration, he's been in her life for 5 years but she shows zero respect for him, constantly saying "i don't have to listen to you, you ain't my dad so just shut up" he has had a lot of patience with her up to now, we are all at breaking point with this behaviour

This is the problem, I give in to nothing but she does not give up, it's exhausting. If I make a threat I follow through no matter how much she kicks off yet she still does not learn from it and the same will happen the next day, I feel like there is no getting through to her.

It's exhausting, I feel like she's going backwards with her behaviour, it's like having a toddler in a 9 year olds body the way she tantrums 😔 she has zero control over any emotions, when she's happy she's bouncing off the walls, when she's angry she's out of control

How much 1-1 positive time does she get?
Between her behaviour and having a baby I can imagine you're exhausted and emotionally drained, then going to her dad's eow is taking more time up (unavoidably).
Do you read with her each night? It doesn't have to be long, but a routine of a quick 10 minute cuddle reading can really improve bedtime if you aren't already doing it. To avoid the TV in bed but help with the need for stimulation/inability to sit in silence music and a colour changing projector nightlight may help.

Our DC with adhd really doesn't react well with too much screen time. Improving boundaries with it was very hard for the first few weeks, but we now have no screens during the week and save screen time for after the DC have been out at the weekend. It was a hard adjustment, but they now only have about 2 hours a week on screens and it has made quite a difference in them both being able to occupy themselves better and being calmer.

Can you also plan some 1-1 time during the weekends you have her more often? It doesn't have to be long, but even an hour bike ride or going to the park with just her rather than the baby coming could help.

It won't fix the behaviour, but may help, it's easy to get in a rut of there being more negative interactions than positive with a difficult child, and the only way to really improve their behaviour is to improve their mental health and mood. With children positive attention is often a huge factor in that. But cut yourself some slack too as it's not at all easy.

@VV12 Look up After-School Restraint Collapse. It’s a really common thing, particularly in kids with ADHD. Basically, because they’ve been masking all day and holding everything in (being an angel for her teachers) as soon as she gets home to her safe space, it’s like the lid coming off a pressure cooker. She can’t hold it in. There are things you can do to help this, but it comes down to calm and routine.

In the evenings, as PPs said, no TV in the bedroom ever. Also, give warnings for transitions and make sure she hears and acknowledges you. E.g. “In five minutes you’ll need to put that away and brush your teeth.” “When you’ve finished brushing your teeth, we’ll read together.” “I’ll read you one story and then it’s cuddle time and lights out.” “We’ll have a five minute cuddle, then it’s lights out.” You get the picture, but it’s preparing her for everything so there’s no sudden transitions, she knows what’s going to happen next.

Routine and organisation helps make her life calm and predictable, which will help her remain more calm.

It’s so hard, but hang in there. You can do it.

Following with sympathy, i strongly suspect my Dd (9) has PDA and is also an angel ar school. We are at our wits end too xxx

I try and give her as much 1-1 time as possible, she's a girly girl so I'll book for the 2 of is to get nails done, have an hour or 2 out shopping with her just the two of us on weekends when there is time etc it always starts well but never ends well, at some point afterwards something will be wrong and it will go from 'the best day ever' to the 'worst day ever'

I do need to limit her screen time more, I have set time limits on her phone and iPad so that after 6.30pm she can no longer go on it so that she has a good few hours without before bed.
Today was an awkward one as I was working later than expected, 9am-9pm so she went to bed later than usual and the usual routine of chilling together before bed sort of went out of the window as I got home and had to eat, sort things for her for school tomorrow, washing etc so didn't get much time with her before taking her up to bed.

She swears that she can only sleep with the tv on (volume low) so that she can listen to it while falling asleep, dhr also has 3 night lights as she will not settle in the dark, but as I took the tv off her tonight, she finally give in around midnight to having the 'moshi' app on low which is a sort of relaxation/audio book so that she wasn't in silence.

I just find it so hard, frustrating and challenging. When the bad behaviour starts I try my hardest to remain calm, be reasonable with her, but the things she says can be real mean, she also turns violent, starts kicking/ hitting etc then eventually I will lose it with her and it turns in to a screaming match, then I will be upset with myself for letting myself get so frustrated, I just feel it's a vicious circle at the moment with no end to it.

When my daughter went through a stage like this she turned out to be massively stressed about school. It seems like she would button up in fear at school, but all the bottled up anger would be unleashed at home. I ended up doing online schooling with my kid and things slowly got back to normal

Yes you can 100% see that she cannot help but to burst her frustration out as soon as she is out of school, it's like she has been waiting to explode all day.

I have tried loads of times to pre warn her with timings of things as have read up that it helps but for some reason it actually really winds her up, she goes ballistic if I say "in 10 mins we're going up to bed" she will instantly react and start screaming at me "Don't tell me that! Just tell me when I'm actually going to bed, why do you have to tell me, your so mean"

Sorry op. I would go to your dr regardless of what the teacher says. If she has adhd and can be medicated, that might help a lot. At the least, you might get some guidance on coping. It sounds like you're doing an amazing job holding firm with her as well as managing a baby. Go easy on yourself, parenting is so hard sometimes.

My son is younger but I'm also concerned about his behavior,

It’s really hard @VV12 and I experienced it with my daughter and other relatives who came to live with me because their parents couldn’t cope and kicked them out :0(
It helped me to remember the following things and then follow this plan.
First - kids often show stress or fear through anger and ferocious outbursts.
second - once you start to lose your cool the situation will never improve.
Third - that they will follow set boundaries if they have respect for you and feel like you’re on their side, are listening and they feel loved.

How much time do you spend with your daughter doing things on her terms that she loves every week? I don’t mean taking her shopping or somewhere that you think she should like - but doing her thing? If she still likes playing - have you played an imaginative game with her? If she’s starting to like pop music have you asked her to show you her favourite YouTube videos? Baked her favourite cake with her?
I can 100% guarantee you that if you find the thing she loves and do it with her and give her some time and energy, she will feel good inside and you will gain a better communication and understanding with her very quickly at her age.

At that point - she may start to tell you what’s happening to make her behave like this . She may hate something going on at school, she maybe jealous of the baby, your partner, something may be happening at her dad’s. She may be going through early puberty and be scared with how her body is feeling. She may be angry at you or just the situation and be a bit jealous. This will give you an opportunity to fix some stuff by tweaking family routines.

At that point- you can also layout your boundaries of expected behaviour - what time she’s expected to be in bed and when that involves in terms of bedtime routine. Why sleep is good etc. Go through it with her when she’s receptive and you’ve had a good time.

At the same time, try reducing her screen time; increasing physical activities -( these can be fun like doing a HIT routine with you, play hide and seek or tag with her), put your phones away; if she has a phone check what she’s looking at; look at her diet (try and make it as healthy as poss and get her involved with cooking with you).
You could sign up to CAHMs to see if you can get an appt and be on the wait list in case she needs actual diagnosis later as she hits early teens hopefully you won’t have to wait that long … BUT medication needs to go hand in hand with other strategies anyway so none od this will hurt whilst you’re waiting.

something’s going on with her and I hope she’s ok and you can get to the bottom of x

Sorry @VV12 I should have read this post of yours .
THen white noise is interesting and one of my relatives has this. It was an anxiety thing.
maybe you can get a white noise machine and ditch TV phone IPad.
also great you’re doing things together - are these all things she really loves? Does she want a manicure? Or would she prefer to play a game? It’s finding her thing that makes her feel loved that can help.
Good luck and hang in there. Sounds like you’re working hard too. I hope you get some time for you when she’s with her dad. What’s her behaviour like there? X

Get rid of the TV in her bedroom, there is zero zero good to come from it. She can listen to sleep story podcasts downloaded onto a device with no connected internet or anything else to do on it.

She doesn’t ’owe’ respect to your partner because she is right, he’s not her parent. She should be civil and polite and I think the onus is on your partner actually to be the bigger person and accept she’s clearly struggling and not at ease with the situation.

id get rid of the tv, do more one to one time with her, start some counselling together just you and her, ask for a meeting with school.

9 is still young. I think a baby and a blended family are a lot for her to deal with at an age where she’s going into her preteen/teen years. Teen years are hard and I’d do as much as you can now to build a better relationship with her. Good luck x

I was going to say this too. Teacher said the same about my son and by the time I went to the doctor and got the referral my son didn't end up getting assessed and diagnosed until just after his GCSEs - lists are long.

I wish I hadn't paid any attention to what teacher said now and got the ball rolling earlier, luckily the senco backed me up.

@VV12

My daughter at age 9 was very similar.

I did ask the school about possibly a diagnosis. But TBH - I’m glad I didn’t go down that route. I have friends who have - and it has led to a lot of ‘gentle parenting’ and giving the child too much control. I’d be fine with this if I saw it working, but I don’t see it working, Schools are buckling with SEN behaviour.
I went for the ‘outdated’ Supernanny approach and it worked. DD is 14 now - and is pretty good at self managing. Getting herself to school, does her homework, takes herself off to bed.

From what you’ve described - it sounds to me like she is ‘winning’ and controlling the situation - from the language she uses, to the three hours attention she got.
You need to be in charge and give the message that the language/3 hours/tantrum is completely unacceptable and comes with a consequence. It needed to be nipped in the bud as soon as you got the ‘mummy’s mean for giving me a warning’. You are not mean and she needs to be called out on that straight away - to avoid the 3 hour escalation. It’s a warning, reflection time (with no attention) until you get the apology. Once the apology comes you continue with bedtime. The apology is very powerful because it puts you back in charge,

Watch some Supernanny on YouTube,

I have DC with ADHD (age 8). When they get like this I do two things I take it as a sign that they’re overstimulated and overwhelmed anf scale back ALL screen time for the family for about a month. That means no smartphones while DC in the room, no TV, no gaming, no screens except for homework on the iPad. We call it the family reset. DC’s behaviour is night and day after the reset. Our children make great progress in their relationships, reading, curiosity, arts and crafts skills and activity levels/ sports skill and proficiency during this time. We then slowly reintroduce screen time back to normal levels as a reward (usual levels are quite strict, no YouTube, weekdays screen time only after homework completed and limited to 40mins, weekend limited to a couple of hours each day).

i have ADHD myself and two things I have noticed is that DC only gets like that with his father. I don’t allow disrespect and withdraw the fun me if they are rude to me - for an ADHD dopamine seeking DC, that consequence is enough to mean they modify their behaviour. DH, however, gets into shouting matches and the rudeness and awful things DC says escalate during this period. It’s very stressful and something I’m addressing with DH- if DH can’t model good emotional regulation to DC, how and why do they expect DC to achieve what their tantruming parent cannot?

I stopped raising my voice to DC when I realised the impact that DH’s shouting had on me during one of my ADHD overwhelm shutdowns/ meltdowns. I was terrified, completely frozen in fear and then my brain went even further into overwhelm than I thought possible. Seeing it from an ADHD perspective made me realise how scary those shouting matches must be for DC even if they are the ones that « started it » and pushed our buttons.

For you I would say you need to learn self control before you can teach your neurodiverse child self control: regulation. If you’re not modelling it, how will they learn. Do whatever it takes - parenting class etc. If they speak rudely about privileges such as hair and nails, they lose the next one. So start making strict daily and weekly routines so they know what to expect and know when a privilege is lost that week/month as a result of their behaviour. ADHD children, even more than neurotypical children, need and thrive off routines even if they’re are likely to push against them.

No TV in a bedroom, ever. Get rid of it and limit screen time. Audio book for 30 minutes and then white noise after - I find my Adhd DC gets overstimulated and struggles with sleep if the audiobook is left to play for a long time in a way that doesn’t happen with just white noise.

Also to add re the disprespect- DC loses privileges for rolling their eyes at me/ slamming doors and/or stomping up the stairs. They don’t even get the satisfaction of having slammed the door as I call them back to close it gently/ call them downstairs to walk back upstairs properly. That way the behaviour doesn’t escalate beyond that to actual rude and mean words.

DH doesn’t correct the milder rudeness, so by the point he’s correcting DC, the behaviour has already escalated to DC being nasty.

I make sure I nip the behaviour in the bud. Don’t let the small things slide (if it’s meant rudely), obviously an eye roll at a bad joke while we’re laughing together is very different from an eye roll when I’ve asked them to do something. Also don’t give them more attention from their rude behaviour - they get a reaction and that reaction is the dopamine their brain craves even if it is negative attention. Refuse to engage if they’re behaving rudely.

@babyproblems everyone deserves to be respected. You say she doesn't owe respect to her partner because he is not her parent but you expect him to be understanding of her behaviour. According to you he doesn't deserve respect and he isn't her parent so why should he tolerate her bad behaviour?

Yes this, there is a certain level of respect any human is entitled too just because they are human