My daughter is out of control

[VV12]

Just spent the last 3 hours battling with my 9 year old daughter to go to bed, she still isn't sleeping.
It started with the wrong pyjama's, then there was too much toothpaste on her toothbrush, then she wanted the original pyjamas, then I told her no tv in bed because of the way she was speaking to me "shut up" "do this/that now" "your so mean" "your getting on my last nerve" "stop telling me what to do"
Then a whole other meltdown began because of the no tv which has resulted in a 3 hour screaming battle because she says she can't sleep without the tv, baby was woken up by the screaming, partner woke up, everyone's frustrated/upset and now she's laying in bed as calm as anything (but still awake) while I'm downstairs in absolute tears, wanting to bang my head against the wall in frustration, baby just settled back down and partner telling me that I need to sort her behaviour out as he can't live with her anymore (he's not her dad)
I really don't know what to do anymore her behaviour is completely out of control.
I highly suspect she has some form of ADHD/ODD (it's in the family) not just from the behaviour but she just can't listen to any sort of instruction, can't keep still, talks non stop, fidgets a lot etc
I have tried speaking to the school but of course "shes an angel" in school and the teacher made me feel like the whole conversation was pointless and as if im just exaggerating and basically told me that the gp will be a waste of time as she's fine in school.
She is very good at masking her behaviour in school but every single morning is an absolute nightmare, can't get her out of bed, gives me attitude/ back chat the whole time she's getting ready, as soon as she steps foot in the car after school it's like the whole days frustration just comes pouring out of her.
Don't really know what I want out of this thread, I'm just at a loss, what the hell can I do with this behaviour?
Nothing bothers her, she don't care if I take things off her, she don't care if I shout/tell her off, she don't care if I stop her going anywhere, if I tell her to go to her room for a time out she just looks at me and says no so I physically have to pick her up and place her in her room, then she just throws herself around the room in a rage for ages, these meltdowns can last hours.
absolutely nothing works!

Do you watch her on Roblox? There are some real potential issues her particularly if doing group games and talking to people on line! Is this being monitored at all?
Totally right that Snapchat is a no! They’re 9 FFS what are their parents thinking???

This is interesting. My sister has PDA and used to do the same, like she found comfort and regulation in the familiarity of the same episode. PDA is rooted in extreme anxiety, and I suspect that rewatching the same episode has a calming effect because she knows exactly what comes next. There's no uncertainty.

As I said in my original post it's not just her bad behaviour that makes me suspect ADHD it's also other things like excessive fidgeting/talking/hyper
I have a brother with ADHD and they are very similar in ways, I don't want to 'label' my daughter, I know 100% that it is more than a case of just bad behaviour, I can see that her brain just doesn't work/think the same as other children her age.

Sorry to add again but if I was their teacher I would be very concerned to know that my class was on Snapchat and Roblox in this way. This is a real safeguarding issue.

@VV12 mine doesn't have a phone or an iPad during the week. She also doesn't have a TV in her room. Before bed I know she's 10 but she's got ASD (waiting for ADHD assessment) she watches an episode of peppa pig on my phone. It has taken us months to get into a routine for mornings and bed.

Mornings - everything is in one room. She wakes to an alarm - have you tried an alarm that she sets? This has worked wonders as once again she's in control. She comes to the lounge I bring her breakfast, a toothbrush and flannel her uniform etc and she gets herself ready (yes with tv on) and then she calls me to do her hair. I am not lying when we did not have the alarm or this routine getting ready for school was a nightmare.

She will need lots of downtime after school. Roblox is a bit much I believe / if she's using screens it needs to be something less stimulating.

At night - we now have a little game of passing a ball, she may read to herself or I read to her and tell her a story, she can't sleep without me so I lay in bed with her. There is no demand to sleep we are just resting our heads.

Does your daughter take a magnesium supplement? Look into these (even gummie style) so it's like a sweet.

Have to echo others sorry. That's quite shocking that 9 year olds are allowed to do this. Roblox restricts these features for under 13 year olds without parental consent - it's far too much too young, particularly for a child that already struggles with self-regulation and anxiety.

Her brain won’t work the same way. Because she has excessive exposure to screens. Which is known to cause behaviours similar to that of adhd.

Before any one comes at me about screens as regulation tools I know and fully support this but a phone, TV, Roblox, online gaming and iPad is not a regulation tool.

She’s addicted to screens .

Please look into PDA e.g. search for Kristy Forbes. She has incredible insight as PDAer herself and parent of PDA children.
Until you've lived it people won't understand. PDA parenting is right for PDA children. My dd is a young adult who now lives with her fiancé. She's learned how to live as a PDAer and her life is still harder than life for the majority of (NT) people. But shes not the entitled, uncontrollable individual I was told I would be raising if I didn't continue with rigid boundaries and sanctions etc.I lost friends along the way who would only consider behavioural strategies as an approach.
My daughter is a delightful, warm, loving, clever, creative, model citizen.
She finds rewatching familiar episodes of a favourite programme a really important way of regulating.

No. Please stop. PDA does need to be parented differently but it still needs to be parented. Did your 9 year old have a phone? An iPad? A tv? Online gaming? You know that’s not acceptable.

I should say a number of kids in my DDs year do have phones and Tik Tok I don't know about Snapchat. But a phone until secondary school is a hard no in this house.

It's a Pandora's box OP, but maybe it's something to wean her off. There has to be another way to fill her time after school. Even if it's watching telly in the front room/playing with her toys etc.

@GrammarTeacher yes I watch her on Roblox, her account is also logged in to my phone so I can see exactly who she is speaking to and playing with.

I'd remove the phone this morning. There is no need whatsoever for a 9 year old to have a phone. I find it hard to believe that everyone in the class has one. There must be at least some parents in the class who are steadfastly protecting their kids from the crap that comes with phones at least until primary is done.

It's interesting that your DD is watching the same episode every night to go to sleep. It's comfort watching. I wonder if you could find some music or a star projector or similar to replace it.

Have you had a sit down conversation with her, detached from any particular incident, to talk about what's going on for her? When they start acting up isn't a great time to be asking 'What's the matter with you' as it will always come off critical. I would plan 2-3 hours for you to spend with her, away from anyone else and try to open up some conversations with her about whether there's anything affecting her. I'd also try to have a calm conversation about her behaviour having an impact on her and you. It's obvious it's upsetting for you but I wonder if she recognises that it doesn't feel nice to her either.

@Canonicalhours

Hmm. Well as think ‘gentle parenting’ is ‘bloody awful’ advice. We have a SEN system that is in crisis and a lot of confused children who have never been given boundaries.

My daughter was having hideous tantrums and she is now happy and self managing. She is achieving well at school. I am friends with a group of Mums who firmly agree that children need to hear the word ‘no’ - and all the children in that group are having no issues at school too.

A parents originally in our group whose children - from a young age - didn’t hear ‘no’ are now school avoidant and the Mum states they both are PDA. I can’t see how not hearing ‘no’ has helped? How is this going to benefit their life outcomes?

@GrammarTeacher also to add she is not speaking to people online, her and her school friends speak over a group text message/call on her phone while their playing games

Because phones, TV and Roblox are way more exciting than a boring book. When I limit screentime completely, my children's interest in the world around them never ceases to amaze me, and the artwork, knowledge and curiosity that stems from those periods of boredom is incredible.

She may well have autism, ADHD, PDA but until you fix the screentime addiction issue, you won't know which of her behaviours stem from that and which stem from a neurological condition as there is alot of overlap: www.ukatlondonclinic.com/blog/screen-time-and-kids-mental-health/#:~:text=Changes%20in%20behaviour,true%20extent%20of%20the%20situation.

Fix the screentime. I personally would go cold-turkey with it for a few months, and slow re-introduce some of it (but not Roblox and chatting to friends online).

There is a good article here. Especially the bit about ‘authoritative parenting’.

www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/parenting-matters/202501/does-gentle-parenting-work?amp

Glad to hear not talking in the game. However, as a teacher, the group chats over text messaging apps are a total nightmare and lead to all manner of pastoral issues. They are not old enough for this.
It’s all so over stimulating with so much happening at once, it’s no wonder she can’t settle.
She may well be ND but I would certainly recommend removing/reducing screen exposure. It can only be a good thing.

Sounds identical to my dd12. She has ASD with a very high pda profile, very challenging !

You're making a lot of excuses - it's really shocking and not age appropriate. The reaction on here shows that your child's friendship group is a bubble and not the norm.

Most 9 year olds, if even allowed to play roblox, play it together on playdates in person. I don't know any 9 year old that has a smartphone in my child's school.

Also to add if she has been behaving badly then both the phone and iPad are always the first to be taken off her and it really does not bother her in the slightest, she will just say 'I don't care'
I have taken them both off her for weeks at a time for her behaviour and the behaviour does not change in the slightest, I'm not saying that screen time doesn't effect children's behaviour but it literally makes no difference whatsoever to hers. I will still have the same arguments and tantrums off her every day regardless if she's been on her phone or iPad

Well that's obvious, given her screen addiction.

You're excusing it because "all her friends do it". And ignoring the very obvious negative impact it's having on your family.

Spot on

If it has no impact then just take it away because this level is dangerous.

You literally posted because she tantrummed into the wee hours of the morning, waking you and the baby up, because you punished her by removing screen-time. Which is it? It either affects her or not...

Screen-time as punishment is not a sustainable method of regulation or discipline long-term