My daughter is out of control

[VV12]

Just spent the last 3 hours battling with my 9 year old daughter to go to bed, she still isn't sleeping.
It started with the wrong pyjama's, then there was too much toothpaste on her toothbrush, then she wanted the original pyjamas, then I told her no tv in bed because of the way she was speaking to me "shut up" "do this/that now" "your so mean" "your getting on my last nerve" "stop telling me what to do"
Then a whole other meltdown began because of the no tv which has resulted in a 3 hour screaming battle because she says she can't sleep without the tv, baby was woken up by the screaming, partner woke up, everyone's frustrated/upset and now she's laying in bed as calm as anything (but still awake) while I'm downstairs in absolute tears, wanting to bang my head against the wall in frustration, baby just settled back down and partner telling me that I need to sort her behaviour out as he can't live with her anymore (he's not her dad)
I really don't know what to do anymore her behaviour is completely out of control.
I highly suspect she has some form of ADHD/ODD (it's in the family) not just from the behaviour but she just can't listen to any sort of instruction, can't keep still, talks non stop, fidgets a lot etc
I have tried speaking to the school but of course "shes an angel" in school and the teacher made me feel like the whole conversation was pointless and as if im just exaggerating and basically told me that the gp will be a waste of time as she's fine in school.
She is very good at masking her behaviour in school but every single morning is an absolute nightmare, can't get her out of bed, gives me attitude/ back chat the whole time she's getting ready, as soon as she steps foot in the car after school it's like the whole days frustration just comes pouring out of her.
Don't really know what I want out of this thread, I'm just at a loss, what the hell can I do with this behaviour?
Nothing bothers her, she don't care if I take things off her, she don't care if I shout/tell her off, she don't care if I stop her going anywhere, if I tell her to go to her room for a time out she just looks at me and says no so I physically have to pick her up and place her in her room, then she just throws herself around the room in a rage for ages, these meltdowns can last hours.
absolutely nothing works!

If mine said that to me the bedtime would be immediate. Just a calm consequence. Tell her how you would like her to respond to the your reminders (I.e. an acknowledgement such as sure, ok, that’s fine mum), and explain if she responds by shouting its a sign she’s more tired than you thought and needs bedtime immediately.

if she is rude when you remind her how long is left, enforce the consequences calmly. You can make out like you didn’t want to do it but since she’s showed signs she’s exhausted it’s the right thing to do (e.g. you can discipline without taking sides against her).

If your dd does have ADHD then you can’t parent her the same as a nt child

All the tough talking and not backing down because she has to learn who’s boss is not working. You might think at some point it does work but that’s because it’s just about to get worse

Restricting tv because of the backchat makes no sense
As you have found out it is more trouble that it’s worth

I would press ahead with the ADHD assessment and ignore the teachers

It might sound weak but calmly telling your dc that you don’t like to be treated nastily and then leave it
Let her have the tv and whilst watching it, with the distraction, she might realise how nasty she has been

I know this might be a strange question but what does it matter which set of pyjamas she wants to wear.She is 9years old
My dd (also ADHD and on meds) has been choosing which clothes to wear since she was 2 years old and being in charge of brushing her own teeth since she started school.

The reason shouting or getting angry at her doesn’t work is because there is so much noise going on in her head that you are a mere voice in the vackground

The reason she shouts and screams for hours is because she needs to drown out the noise in her head which in turn is keeping her awake

Take a look at PDA. It's a tough gig, it's not you.

Sorry but that’s terrible advice. ADHD is not an excuse for that type of extreme behaviour. There’s a trigger for it (may be her mum shouting, may be excessive screen time, may be troubles in school). They need to find the root cause but the home should be a safe space for everyone and no one should get a pass just because of ADHD (I say this as someone with ADHD with an ADHD child of similar age).

The impact of letting this escalate and excusing abusive behaviour can be catastrophic. She has a baby sibling who will soon start to become fearful of this behaviour and feel unsafe in her own home if it’s allowed to continue.

You think she's Autistic. So that means she is. Mum's ALWAYS know. Everything you describe would fit pretty well.

It's incredibly common to use phrases such as ' no respect' when parenting Autistic children. It's not that which is going on, instead, it's usually about a few things.

They are this; complete overwhelm, inability to effectively communicate that, and a need that is overwhelming for control over her life. The control gives a sense of safety and helps the internal anxiety of being Autistic.

A big thing that helps is offering CHOICES. This gives a sense of control to her. For some Autistic people ( like my son), the need for control is almost pathological. It has to be achieved in order to feel safe. She's going to be struggling with this guy there. I appreciate that is hard as you need to take care of your needs too. It's useful however to accept the reality of how it is for her.

Choices that might help could look like this-

Do you want to brush your teeth now or in 5 minutes?
Are you brushing yourself or am I brushing for you tonight? You decide?
Are you wearing PJs tonight's or do you fancy pants and vest to bed?
A book for bedtime tonight or shall we have an audible story?
Do you want to skip brushing tonight and do a double brush in the morning? You choose.

Your partner is upset and envious because your daughter is taking time away from him. I understand that feeling but he is not the biological father and it's important to be cautious as to how much of a say he has here. Your daughter will not be stupid. She's probably highly attuned and sees through bullshit and will have a strong sense of fairness and justice. His comments,based in his own needs, are going to just make her worse. I'd ask him to find a way to keep himself entertained as you work through this with her.

I'd start looking at all the parenting approaches for Autistic/ ADHD children. Expecting deference and appreciation of the parental hierarchy - forget it. Instead, look at collaboration, giving choices, appreciate that she sees through false masks that your partner may be wearing. Ask her what she needs. Give her some control.

I'd look at any ways you can get respite if possible. Parents or family or anyone, even if you pay them to do sleepovers so you can have a bit of peace and a break. Also so you have time for your relationship.

No, actually, @Yalta has it pretty spot on I'd say.
It's a balance. Punishment does not work.

I have adhd and know that you can’t deal with a child with ADHD like that

It is patronising and just designed to make her angry and stay up for longer just to spite you

You act like this child will do as you say so when you say bedtime is immediate, how are you planning on enforcing that. physically carrying her to her bedroom

You can make out like you didn’t want to do it. 😂😂😂 Then the answer is Why then are you doing it.

I was that child and can understand the issues you can have

I have ADHD and my child has ADHD. It works and has worked for a couple of years. He self regulates now after a week or so of this.

How is he going to stay up longer to spite me? He’s 8 and tired. I make sure he gets a couple of hours activity every day - we go to the park after school pretty much every day unless the weather prohibits it, Not sure I understand the lack of parental control and acceptance of that as a fact of ADHD parenting that I’m seeing on this thread.

My parenting is reward and dopamine based and bad behaviour loses short term privileges/ rewards - it’s pretty effective for my child who is a huge dopamine seeker and means he self regulates rather than lose his reward/ game time.

No he’s not rude . He’s telling how he feels . The daughter has no respect for him and tells him to shut up (ops words ) He’s put up with it for so long and now at breaking point . He won’t need to be told to go, he will just go.

But if she was allowed the tv then things would have been calm and it would give her time to reflect on her behaviour and apologise

Without the distraction of tv she has been left with a brain that won’t let her sleep without the tv

Think of it as her brain is shouting keep awake keep awake but then it sees the tv, gets interested in a programme and forgets to shout “keep awake” and off she nods

You used her inability to fall asleep against her

Spot on .

I had a dog when dd was born and not having been around children my take on parenting was the same as dog training
Ignore bad behaviour.praise good

No real bedtime, although we naturally gravitated to the bathroom and bedroom for story time around a certain time. I had few rules and gave them a lot of autonomy

At 9years old the helicopter parenting must be frustrating

I’ve got ADHD, though I wasn’t diagnosed until later in life.

I was very physically active after school, I had daily sports or activities of some sort that I enjoyed, which really made me look forward to my days. Or I’d be active at home, rollerblading, dancing, playing tennis against the garage door…

As an adult I’ll generally fall asleep to the tv, audio, or reading. It’s comforting to have my routine, and sometimes it’s really useful to help switch off and minimise the noise in my head, additionally I really look forward to it. That dopamine hit, and time for an activity I enjoy is really important to me, and it’s frustrating when I don’t get to do that as I feel like I haven’t really had time for me, and have only had time for all the boring stuff I have to do (which can take considerable effort). It’s the regular things that take more effort for us, but are usually effortless for others. That’s why having fun/down-time is vital if you have ADHD, and helps recharge the batteries. Otherwise, it can all become easily overwhelming and frustrating.

It sounds like your daughter is really struggling with her emotions, and crying out for help. Learning about CBT, awareness of her body/mind/emotions, and what is making her feel better or worse are invaluable skills that will help her enormously with her ADHD, and in life in general. How can she help herself, and how can you support her? Does she have a diary?

Lack of sleep, exercise, rest, and fun will exacerbate symptoms.

What did I do today that made me feel better, what made me feel worse. Track my emotions throughout the day, what made me feel this way, which situations…what can I do differently, or continue to do that is healthy and positive. Self-care, asking for help, or a hug from mum…

Also, can you take a day off work, and get a sick note for a mental health day for her, so you two can just spend the day together? Ask her what’s going on? Schedule regular weekend walk and coffee dates. Take a yoga class or other class together. Talk to her, let her talk to you. Be her mother, but also her friend. Just listen…Even if she doesn’t have ADHD, the best thing you can do is be there for her.

If you’re frustrated with her, don’t cry downstairs in the kitchen, you can cry in front of her. Do you talk about emotions, problems, problem solving as a family?

I did every thing the complete opposite to how my mother raised me.

I remember the screaming matches because she was always there and wouldn’t leave me alone. Always trying to correct me and do everything for me l wasnt allowed to practice anything and so if I got things wrong after she had allowed me to try something anyone would’ve thought that I had murdered someone the way she carried on and I was in huge trouble because she had told me I couldn’t do it and I had proved her right
It was frustration
A lot of arguments with my mother was because of her not letting me do things

She shouldn't have been allowed TV to sleep in the first place - this is particularly an issue for an ADHD child who will already struggle with sleep. And agree it shouldn't be used as "punishment" but as a reward at appropriate times. What she needs is a consistent and calm long term approach that replaces TV as a sleep aid with healthier alternatives such as white noise or reading.

You can make out like you didn’t want to do it. 😂😂😂 Then the answer is Why then are you doing it.**

I'm doing it because it's my job as the parent to make the tough decisions that will teach them respect and social skills in the long-term. I'm doing it because as someone with ADHD myself, my home is also my safe space and an important part of my emotional regulation/ wind-down from masking at work. My son needs to respect that just as any other child and for the most part he does. Yes he's noisy, yes he chatters constantly, yes he jumps off everything it's possible to jump off and throws a ball against every surface physically possible, but my boundaries - no rudeness, no shouting at me - he has learnt to respect.

I won't compromise on that and I think it's doing ADHD children a disservice to treat them like they can't learn to control what comes out of their mouth at a young age. This obviously requires high managing - he gets lots of exercise everyday so he doesn't have excess energy at the end of the day that he feels he needs to release through arguments/ pushing buttons. I also limit screen-time and his exposure to violent TV shows, and youtube (since the way many YouTubers talk is not acceptable to me and I don't want him to learn that).

You act like this child will do as you say so when you say bedtime is immediate, how are you planning on enforcing that. physically carrying her to her bedroom

No I can't and don't physically carry him upstairs - he's almost as tall as me now and wearing the same size shoes. I guess that's why underlying connection is important. If the game is off because he's been rude to me/his siblings, he can choose to stay downstairs but then misses out on the fun and proximity to me and his siblings. He comes upstairs since there's no competing stimulation downstairs. In any event, screen time is never the last thing at night anymore - we always do art/toy playtime/ boardgames (something to connect that's not overly stimulating) before we go upstairs so they're not wired during the bedtime routine. This switch in the order of things avoids screen-time becoming a bedtime argument.

ADHD and Autism together can confuse things.

Respect?

It's a bit like asking for a plaster on your knee when your leg got blown off. She doesn't even understand wtf is being asked with this respect stuff. All she needs, in her different way of being, is a sense of safety and control. She won't give anyone respect at all until that primary animalistic need is met.

This is a battle of wills and seeking domination between adults and child. Demanding respect is the absolute wrong hill to die on.

Forget the respect bollocks. Your basic aim right now should be getting things achieved slightly easier with less ' battles' and chaos.

Choices, that's how. Asking her why she doesn't like certain things. Really ask and you'll see. Tooth brushing probably hurts her physically on a sensory level. The thought is overwhelming. It took me 10 years to realise this for my own child. I just did not calmly and openly ask why he couldn't brush his teeth, ever.

There's also the need for autonomy which I can't stress enough. The choice must be hers on some level. You can frame this so you still get what you need. If she chooses elements of the task, she'll feel control and much less likely to fight you. Try it.

NT children are wired to generally be compliant. That is what the partner is pissed off about. This situation is confusing because the typical compliance is not there. It's triggering on various levels. But he won't force anything here as much as he may wish to. Respect is the wrong word. I still get triggered and feel disrespected, but I know what's happening here so have to try process it. It's really hard stuff I won't lie.

A night alone with your partner here and there may help. I would try achieve that if family can help with sleepovers.

TV at bed and noise is a huge need for many ND kids. There's huge anxiety associated with sleeping and bed. I don't fully understand it, but ND adults will I'm sure. Alexa in the bedroom is a godsend. We have audible stories, white noise options, music and child can set sleep timer themselves. It might help. You could have the TV stop working a few nights in her room and try this. With her full control over the Alexa device. You can have rain sounds all night or whatever it takes to help.

while you have multiple posters shouting PDA! ADHD!!!
honestly…I’m not convinced.
i think a lot of kids wouldn’t be behaving similarly given your circs (blended families, new baby) and your lifestyle choices / implied parenting style which (based on info you shared here) is fairly permissive relative to mine.

As examples there’s no way:

• I’d take a 9 yr old to get her nails done irrespective of any behaviour good or bad.
• there would be a tv in a child’s bedroom
• my child would have that much screen time (it’s also unclear whether you supervise or have full parental control over the content)
• I’d permit her to speak to a partner/family member like that

you implies the first time she was shouting this nonsense about not having to respect or listen to your DP was years ago now. She’s been doing it so long she knows its accepted as it wasnt handled when it initially presented

That said with kids to some extent you get what you get…

In practical terms I’d sell the tv.
get a baby white noise machine if you must but no tv.

You lost me at a 9 year old having a phone….

the adhd question mark is a red herring. You’ve said yourself you were working until 9pm and bedtime routine went out the window…. There is your answer.

@LivingLaVidaBabyShower just to be clear, as this always pops up on this type of thread; mum is shouting this herself. Mum always knows best on this one.

There's alot going on. Permissive parent accusations don't however help anyone here. It's a confusing situation to parent in. The usual rules, they don't apply.

*Do you want to brush your teeth now or in 5 minutes?
Are you brushing yourself or am I brushing for you tonight? You decide?
Are you wearing PJs tonight's or do you fancy pants and vest to bed?
A book for bedtime tonight or shall we have an audible story?
Do you want to skip brushing tonight and do a double brush in the morning? You choos

I think it's important to figure out whether it's autism or ADHD because as someone with ADHD that number of questions/ extra decisions can be overwhelming.

Maybe it's a cultural difference but sometimes British parents seems so willing to accept disrespect as a fact of childhood/ adolescence. I'm British with an immigrant background - ADHD runs in our family. We had a fun high-activity childhood with an ADHD mum but respect was a prerequisite and I never struggled with that element - things were nipped in the bud early before escalating.

Someone upthread accused me of being a helicopter parent which is funny to me because anyone who knows me in real life would accuse me of the opposite. Everything I do is optimised to create the lowest effort parenting/ anything otherwise I just won't do it. So the things I'm saying don't mean I hover over my kids - but of course changing the way you discipline a child requires an element of hovering while learning the new routine/ expectation - but if the method works it means I can go back to lazy parenting. Like I said, he self-regulates on many of these things because he knows rudeness/disrespect/meanness to siblings means reward/fun is over.

Anyway - typical ADHD, I have stayed up on here and other threads instead of sleeping and will try catch an hour of sleep before kids wake up! 😩

Mum knows best…?
Mum has given her 9 yr old a mobile phone, admits her child has too much screen time and put a tv in her child’s bedroom which she now watches into the night. Every night.

It’s a 9 yr old with a phone, unmonitored screen time, manicured nails and a tv in her bedroom blaring until ??? Every night

I’m not sorry for pointing out the obvious but that is permissive parenting.

@Christmasmorale yes definitely agree. ADHD and Autism, although obviously overlap, it's important to know what is what.

The questions / choices definitely not all I'm one hit. That would blow my mind to pieces. I've just reeled off examples in one go.

I'd personally test out one, say the teeth brushing or the pyjamas and just test out giving choice in that one area to see how it works.

@LivingLaVidaBabyShower that's pretty harsh. It's just instilling a sense of shame that rarely initiates positive action.
These phones are how it is now and we might not like it, but it's how it is. My teen has a phone. It's like having another child in what's involved in having this device. I sometimes want it to explode. It does however have a very useful place where Autism/ADHD is involved.
Parents in a similar position will understand exactly what I mean without me explaining that bit.

If mum knows anything, she knows her child is ND. Her instincts will be absolutely fine even if the parenting style isn't in keeping with your approach.

I can’t comment on the behaviour part as I only have a two year old ! In regards to wanting to sleep with the telly on then maybe a tonie box or a yoto box would be helpful ? We use the tonie box and my daughter enjoys choosing what character to listen to at bedtime ! We also used a white noise machine with a red light that’s suppose to have a calming effect, I can agree with that as it use to help my partner and I fall asleep aswell after night feeds !

Really not a helpful comment.