My daughter is out of control

[VV12]

Just spent the last 3 hours battling with my 9 year old daughter to go to bed, she still isn't sleeping.
It started with the wrong pyjama's, then there was too much toothpaste on her toothbrush, then she wanted the original pyjamas, then I told her no tv in bed because of the way she was speaking to me "shut up" "do this/that now" "your so mean" "your getting on my last nerve" "stop telling me what to do"
Then a whole other meltdown began because of the no tv which has resulted in a 3 hour screaming battle because she says she can't sleep without the tv, baby was woken up by the screaming, partner woke up, everyone's frustrated/upset and now she's laying in bed as calm as anything (but still awake) while I'm downstairs in absolute tears, wanting to bang my head against the wall in frustration, baby just settled back down and partner telling me that I need to sort her behaviour out as he can't live with her anymore (he's not her dad)
I really don't know what to do anymore her behaviour is completely out of control.
I highly suspect she has some form of ADHD/ODD (it's in the family) not just from the behaviour but she just can't listen to any sort of instruction, can't keep still, talks non stop, fidgets a lot etc
I have tried speaking to the school but of course "shes an angel" in school and the teacher made me feel like the whole conversation was pointless and as if im just exaggerating and basically told me that the gp will be a waste of time as she's fine in school.
She is very good at masking her behaviour in school but every single morning is an absolute nightmare, can't get her out of bed, gives me attitude/ back chat the whole time she's getting ready, as soon as she steps foot in the car after school it's like the whole days frustration just comes pouring out of her.
Don't really know what I want out of this thread, I'm just at a loss, what the hell can I do with this behaviour?
Nothing bothers her, she don't care if I take things off her, she don't care if I shout/tell her off, she don't care if I stop her going anywhere, if I tell her to go to her room for a time out she just looks at me and says no so I physically have to pick her up and place her in her room, then she just throws herself around the room in a rage for ages, these meltdowns can last hours.
absolutely nothing works!

Wow! She isn’t out of control, but I’m afraid your parenting is. She is a child who needs love and support and routine. It sounds like you resent her, as does your partner. Blended families don’t work. He needs to go. How dare he say he can’t live with her?! She should be your priority. Chances are, she’s reacting to being pushed out by a new baby, everyone’s lack of time for her and her step dad’s attitude towards her. The excessive screen time and a TV won’t help - who bins off a 9 year old to their room with a TV?! Talk about feeling pushed out again. I imagine she is an angel at school as she knows the set up, knows the boundaries and is treated with respect. Shouting and screaming at her for three hours - she must have felt terrified. This is really worrying and things need to change.

Perhaps get her a watch that allows her to send text/make calls. Or give her a "dumb" phone that can make calls only to take to the park. My child has a smartphone as a medical monitoring device - it's still restricted to medical use only and he knows not to use it for games, music, camera etc. You're the parent, you need to set the controls.

I can see the logic but honestly the least safe thing you can do is get her a phone. If you really want to keep track of her then you can get an air tag or a watch with a tracker, or even a brick phone but honestly if she’s old enough to go to the park on her own she’s old enough to be trusted to get back. She’s just much too young for a smart phone, they are designed to be addictive and kids of 9 just can’t deal with them.

Have you tried Melatonin (sorry not sure if anyone else has suggested it)?

And by giving 9 year olds smart phones and then letting them go to the park on their own you’re leaving them vulnerable to mugging.
A brick phone if you really must. I’m an anxious parent though so my 9 year old doesn’t go to the park without grown ups yet.

You need practical solutions to deal with this straight on. Lots of great suggestions already.

No TV in her room

Play white noise instead to help her drift of to sleep or you could get her one of those boxes that read her a story

Magnesium, either in the form of Epsom salts, a magnesium cream or taken orally about an hour before bed. Many children with adhd have low magnesium and this can make their symptoms worse. I give it to my children and myself.

Watch what's he is eating. No sugar a few hours before bed and cut down on the artificial colourings etc

Would a sticker chart or marbles in the jar help her?

Go to your GP with your concerns

Can we please stop over using the term masking. Not every example of good behaviour means someone is masking. If a child is able to demonstrate postive behaviour at school but not for their parents then perhaps there's an issue at home that' needs to be addressed. Not everything related to negative behaviour is adhd related regardless to this being in the family. You don't know your child is masking as you say, you must stop making assumptions and yes you should absolutely talk to a health professional and give them the complete picture in order to get some understanding as to what might be wrong.

Morning OP,

The reason why you believe she has had ADHD/ODD isn’t just down to last night is it?

This is will be day in day out, where arguments can happen over the smallest things.

You need to start keeping a diary, regarding the outbursts, behaviours, triggers, your actions. You also need to record her behaviour on your phone- this will have to be done in a way not to further antagonise you DD but it’s important that the professionals see behaviour. After 4 weeks of recording, make an appointment with the GP. You will probably have to wait a further 2 weeks for an appointment, so keep recording. That will give you 6 weeks of recorded behaviour but also bring along information as to how long this has been going on and any incidents that stand out. Inform the school that you will be contracting the GP about ADHD/ODD.

That’s your first step.

Second, do what’s necessary to make life easier for all of you regarding homework/evenings.

Many people don’t understand how utterly exhausting it is just to ask a child with adhd/odd to do their spelling homework for example. This could result in you having to ask 7/8 times over a half hour period and result in the child becoming upset and angry with you. So a task that may only take a few mins for most children, could be easily be half an hour of arguing. On just that one thing. Never mind, that they have to eat their dinner, have a bath etc.

So speak with the school. Agree any homework that comes home, you will assist your DD but if it causes arguments, you will back off. The School will soon wise up about what’s happening at home. Any work not completed, add a note to explain it wasn’t possible. If the school questions you further, show videos of homework incidents.

One thing you might find helpful, even though it will seem counterintuitive, is giving her more independence. Sometimes the mere presence of an adult can cause upset. Let her get ready by herself in the morning. Lay everything out for her, but let her get on with things without any instructions that she’d naturally want to resist. Now this may result in one or two late mornings. Inform the school of your plans, so they know what’s going on. If you come downstairs, and she’s still not ready etc DO NOT RUSH her. You will know that these transitions will most likely be the most stressful time for her and will result in a meltdown. Just take it easy and get her to school. If she’s 15 mins late walking into class, I guarantee she won’t want to be late the next day and she will be a little quicker.

Just think of ways you can guide her, with the minimal amount of direct instructions.

Eg, set everything up for her bath. Casually mention that’s her bath run, and leave her to it. Listen out for her etc. She is likely to go when she doesn’t feel pressure. If she leaves it too long and it gets cold. Then add more hot water and remind her that as it’s best to jump in as soon as a bath is ready.

Once in the pathway to a diagnosis there will be advice given on how to deal with the behaviours etc. This is why it’s important to get a diagnosis.

So start keeping the diary and speak to the school again.

There is a wonderful 10 hours Brown Noise on you tube ( turn stable volume off) it sounds like a waterfall and the comments under it say how calming it is.

( Ads might be a problem if one doesn’t have an ad blocker though)

No to screens in her room at night. The TV needs to go. You gave her a phone way too early, but you cannot make her relinquish ownership of this, now she has one, just limit screen time. You can tackle this in Easter holiday and start prepping her now.

She is a product of any ND she may have AND her environment, so you need to reframe this situation as "I have lost control of my daughter". You also need to consider that YOU have put her through a lot: divorce, new man in the home, new half sister and a new extended family that she is not related to. She will be keenly aware of any differences in treatment between herself and her half sibling.

You must immediately stop any idea of getting your DD on an even keel to stop your partner leaving. If she becomes aware of this, she will win that battle and you will be partnerless. He needs to learn an adult response to her behaviour, not add to the problem by giving an ultimatum. he should also seek ways to enhance his relationship with your DD

DD needs exactly what she's doing in her "meltdowns", as she has not broken the TV and phone. This doesn't mean the meltdowns are unimportant, she's expressing a lot of things there. It may not be the going to bed that she hates, but there is an opportunity there for her to express the rage and fear she is feeling.

learn to de-escalate, especially around school. Ignore the tantrums. Do not restrain her unless there is danger. As soon as she stops her tantrum, be perfectly nice and normal. She needs to train herself to show behaviour that gets rewards.

This may take years, but she is your daughter for life. The presence or non-presence of your partner is a small number two.

I have a child with ADHD and this behaviour is very familiar - and it is very very common that girls mask in school.

If you suspect ADHD then its worth understanding that very very often poor behaviour comes from a place of anxiety with ADHD and that one of the most effective ways to improve it is to reduce demands/stressors without stopping important boundaries. Rewards/punishments are therefore often much less effective because the behaviour is coming from anxiety.

So in your example above I would have allowed the different pj changes / toothpaste amount issues etc and let her have her way - those don't feel like huge things to me and I would see them as a sign of stress because of the routine change. If I wanted to hurry her up I would probably have said "lets see who can get ready for bed fastest" and raced her getting my own pjs on.

PP have explained the issues with TV at nighttime but I would either always let her have the TV at bedtime or never - I wouldn't remove this as a punishment is its part of her bedtime routine. In your position I would remove it completely forever (not as a punishment) and instead let her have a story cd playing on low at bedtime.

If you often have problems with bedtime one thing which works amazingly for my son is that I have stopped telling him he has to go to sleep, or in fact any instructions to do with going to sleep. The rule is that by 8.30pm he must be completely ready for bed and in his own bed. He can then listen to his music / play with figet toy / read his book etc. He goes to sleep much more quickly when there's no pressure to sleep.

If you have problems with rude language around "I hate you, you're not my dad etc etc I would try a much calmer reply - same thing from both of you - of something like "Luckily I love you enough for both of us" said in a calm/bored/not engaging tone of voice and see if that reduces it.

If you can get school to put some very basic ADHD supports in place - more movement breaks, a theraband or wobble cushion, some fidget tools etc - then you may also see a significant improvement in behaviour at home.

And I agree with pp lots and lots of positive attention focused on really nice things. If she likes her nails done maybe try making your own salon at home - you might get less bad behaviour if she's less overwhelmed.

Stop what? I parented my child very successfully. Where have I advocated not parenting?
If OP's daughter is PDA then the route to reducing screens may need to be different from the route for NT dc.
If she's PDA, her intense dysregulation is likely be from hours at school masking or fawning because her needs are not being met.
And if OP is trying to follow typical parenting, the likelihood is that the dysregulation continues at home and increases towards bedtime.
Applying PDA accommodations throughout the day, at school and at home, reduces dysregulation and enables dc to access basic needs like sleep much better. Starting with draconian reduction in screen time without building trust, and alternative routes to regulation is not PDA parenting.
Having online safeguards in place is sensible parenting full stop.

Look up PDA. If you suspect ND then she might be controlling as she feels no safety in her world.

Or maybe she is NT and badly behaved however all behaviour is communication so something isn't right in her world.

I really feel for you op. My DD was the same. She was dx with ASD when she was 13 and it made so much sense.

You've had a lot of advice (no screens, warnings beforehand etc) and a lot of it you've tried and it doesn't work for your DD

My DD is an adult now and can talk about what she was experiencing then.

Rage and anger that qelled up suddenly out of no where and that she couldn't control or let go of for hours.
She knew to a degree she was being unfair and unreasonable but she also was so powerless to this inner rage.

I had to parent her completely differently to my other DC and to what pp told me.

Listen to what she's saying and what's behind it eg here she's saying she doesn't want to be told beforehand, why? It sounds like it increases her anxiety which she struggles with.

She needs the TV to sleep, fine, let her have it and see if it helps.

Find ways to help her with her anxiety, work with her to find what will help her, even if it goes against conventional advice.

Let her see that you are on her side and trying to help her. Because I guarantee deep down she is at a loss herself and eeds to know regardless of her behaviour you love her.

Meant to add.. I totally relate to the same programme every night, I think it's a familiarity/ comfort thing. What about white noise, you can put Spotify on the TV and put it into dark mode so there's no light? Or even one of they Tonie boxes? In girls it's common for the hyperactivity to be in our minds, so for me, silence drives me insane as I can hear my brain 🤣 TV noise drowns it out 🤣

Have you tried parenting her as a ND child rather than a NT one?

9 year old with suspected ADHD/PDA could well be operating at a 30% younger age than her NT peers OP.
Please be mindful of whether she has the maturity to go to the park on her own and make these sorts of decisions. I'm not saying helicopter parenting but at this age perhaps other interests could be worth pursuing once you have her in a regulated place? Sports/gymnastics etc?

It’s not a super nanny approach … but you being there will escalate it especially if she can pick up in the fact that you are stressed about it. Sometimes things have to get worse before they get better so her being in a right state because she hasn’t slept she won’t be able to maintain that for very long. I tell my son it’s bedtime, if he fannies about he’s told he’s still getting up and out at normal time. Also a very stern telling off the next and day and you telling her how it’s going to be from
now on. Why can’t your partner try and do bedtime - she may react differently to him.

@Seeingalight how did you parent her? What strategies did you use?

contact first steps, and i would still pursue getting professionals involved for adhd assessment, or even some advise on behaviour management. at the moment you haven't got to the route cause of her behaviour, all behaviours are a childs communication for an underlying struggle.

So sorry you are struggling here - mum of DD with ADHD. I was lucky in that it presented in school setting too so diagnosed much easier. But the way they assess is definitely biased towards how boys present. Tbh getting diagnosed as not helped with sleep! Like your Dd she never slept like other babies and needs different stimuli to relax. A bath for example wakes her up. Arguing near bed will only ensure a meltdown that lasts hours as it has with your daughter. However good or at least decent sleep is the KEY to improving behaviour. It helps them regulate anxiety better which can be a huge part of behavioural issues.

What works for me is removing tablet and devices an hour before bed. Only something calm on tv or reading. Then I go bed with her and help settle her to sleep with as much patience and calmness I can muster. It is an extreme solution but one my partner accepts as her behaviour is soooooooo much better. I can clearly see how anxious she is underneath the bravado - I would bet your daughter is too.

You have a new baby in house I know which is likely also making your DD feel anxious and uncertain of her role in the family and your love. Can you get baby to sleep or with partner and then spend an hour getting your daughter to sleep? If she really needs tv on to sleep why not try some bedtime music or a calm tv show on loop. If your daughter is adhd as you suspect it is so common they need stimuli to calm themselves. However if she is simply staying awake watching tv then cut it out and definitely move to some sort of bedtime music.

Your partner does need talking to as that isn’t kind or helpful of him to say and what exactly does he expect you to do abandon your daughter?! So I would be having serious words with him! But honestly focus on her getting consistently even 8-9 hours sleep a night even if that means you lying with her and napping till she’s asleep and you will see a massive improvement all round. Then try build in some one on one time with her - take her swimming or park or something every week whilst partner has baby and just try very hard to find things you can praise her over. Sleep plus praise for things she’s good at will really help regulate her meltdowns. When she has a meltdown try treat it more like an inability for her to cope. Don’t reward it but do talk to her afterwards kindly.
If she has adhd this will not be her fault. Nor is saying no or being defiant fully in their control it’s almost like they get stuck on a loop of negative behaviour that gets negative consequences that brings even more negative behaviour. Sleep helps it all though! Get this improved and then work on the rest.

9 is a big hormonal year for girls. We had a year of battles but all is happy in our house now. We found stricter rules around bedtime helped a lot and lots of exercise. Our daughter is in a football team, swimming team and dance class now and is thriving. Strict screens off time and then white noise machine on for bed. Absolutely no negotiation on this - set an alarm on your phone and pull plugs if needs be. We never left her to go to sleep alone - that was the one thing she couldn’t cope with and if she hadn’t had enough tea she could have a banana and milk or water (or her tea reheated).

Honestly have few but consistent rules and work out what she needs that can’t be changed (like you being there at bedtime and don’t remove this as punishment).

It will get better but think of what you think you need when you have PMT and then what really helps. It’s similar - clean food, sleep and lots of exercise when really I want to slob with bad food and stay up too late with trash tv.

I would strongly recommend melatonin at bedtime. It's made a HUGE and instant difference. DD would not settle, also needed stories, audiobooks, nightlights etc and us to lie with her at the worst times.

Now she drifts off herself with limited 'props' within 20 mins of taking the tablet it's heaven.

She gets a proper night's sleep and is therefore much easier to handle in the morning.

I ordered it from France - it's an over the counter option there and took about a week to arrive.

https://www.sanareva.co.uk/product-chronodorm-melatonin-30-tablets.html?srsltid=AfmBOopxJOsZ5gMVNINckuEF9SGaoVGHH_eonJZyI1NUYTIvKzq9lrmc

What sanctions does does she get for this behavior!? Also, "screaming match"...you should not be screaming, you are sending the wrong message.

Can't believe some of the comments on here. Telling OP to break up her family and 'kick out' her husband because her daughter is being a little madam.

I'm suprised he's stuck around for so long, her behaviour sounds shocking - while it might be ADHD it sounds like she's just been allowed to act like a complete brat and it's become her default.

Take the TV out of her room, rake her phone away and insist she treats her stepfather with respect for a start.