My daughter is out of control

[VV12]

Just spent the last 3 hours battling with my 9 year old daughter to go to bed, she still isn't sleeping.
It started with the wrong pyjama's, then there was too much toothpaste on her toothbrush, then she wanted the original pyjamas, then I told her no tv in bed because of the way she was speaking to me "shut up" "do this/that now" "your so mean" "your getting on my last nerve" "stop telling me what to do"
Then a whole other meltdown began because of the no tv which has resulted in a 3 hour screaming battle because she says she can't sleep without the tv, baby was woken up by the screaming, partner woke up, everyone's frustrated/upset and now she's laying in bed as calm as anything (but still awake) while I'm downstairs in absolute tears, wanting to bang my head against the wall in frustration, baby just settled back down and partner telling me that I need to sort her behaviour out as he can't live with her anymore (he's not her dad)
I really don't know what to do anymore her behaviour is completely out of control.
I highly suspect she has some form of ADHD/ODD (it's in the family) not just from the behaviour but she just can't listen to any sort of instruction, can't keep still, talks non stop, fidgets a lot etc
I have tried speaking to the school but of course "shes an angel" in school and the teacher made me feel like the whole conversation was pointless and as if im just exaggerating and basically told me that the gp will be a waste of time as she's fine in school.
She is very good at masking her behaviour in school but every single morning is an absolute nightmare, can't get her out of bed, gives me attitude/ back chat the whole time she's getting ready, as soon as she steps foot in the car after school it's like the whole days frustration just comes pouring out of her.
Don't really know what I want out of this thread, I'm just at a loss, what the hell can I do with this behaviour?
Nothing bothers her, she don't care if I take things off her, she don't care if I shout/tell her off, she don't care if I stop her going anywhere, if I tell her to go to her room for a time out she just looks at me and says no so I physically have to pick her up and place her in her room, then she just throws herself around the room in a rage for ages, these meltdowns can last hours.
absolutely nothing works!

Just a quick question for those who do have children with autism/adhd
how do you deal with the meltdowns in public?
had such a stressful time today, DD started having a little strop over the smallest thing when out shopping which turned in to a meltdown (basically she seen a toddler ride on that said weight limit 30kg, and she asked me how much stone is 30kg and I just said “oo I’m not sure I’ll have to try work it out” but she needed to know right there and then) it’s such tiny things like that can make her flip, I was just trying to stay calm and talk through it with her and just carry on with with what we were doing, even googled the answer to her question but she was passed that by then and just carried on stropping, telling me I’m mean, to shut up, elbowing me/hitting me/pinching my arm and trying to stop the trolley all the time, could just feel myself filling up with anger and upset, it carried on the for about 5/10 mins after leaving the shop and getting in the car then its like something just switches and she’s in a good mood all of a sudden, and starts talking about something else completely random.

Shopping is a huge trigger here too.

We deal with it by limiting the time that we spend doing it. So, for example, all of his clothes are second hand or ordered online. Shoes are done in one trip with literally nothing else happening. I do an online food order so we only go to the supermarket for top ups. If we need to do something like eg buy a present for a friend that he wants to choose we literally go into town for that and then back again.

In the situation above I'd say that she has got overwhelmed/dysregulated by the shopping so a really small thing like you not knowing the answer straight away has set her off. The thing I would have done differently here is left as soon as she started stropping - not as a punishment but more of a "I can see that you're feeling like this is a bit too much today". Once you were back in the car she was out of the overwhelming situation and the car vibrations / chill time let her calm herself back down.

If that wouldn't work for your family a couple of other things which you could try and ear defenders or music in headphones or breaks between shops to move your body (eg shop, playground, shop) or something to hold and focus on (like the managing the list or carrying the basket).

Sometimes reading these threads it feels like other parents have all of the answers, so I just wanted to let you know as well that although we are a bit further down this road than you - DS had a massive meltdown in a shop on Saturday even though I was following all of this!

Thank you, it’s a hard one cos if she’s buying for herself then she absolutely loves it usually but today was just not a good day. I don’t tend to take her if I know it’s going to be a long or boring shop for her.
my grandmother had given her some money last week so she said she wanted to go and spent it today, I had to do some shopping anyways so she said she would come along and spend her money the same time, so thought it would be an effortless trip 🫣
A lot of her questions are always weight or maths related so think I’m going to have to brush up on my maths skills and memorise unit conversion so maybe I can answer her questions straight away 😂
She does like listening to music so perhaps I should start bringing the headphone’s out with us and offer them to her when I can see when she is getting agitated to see if that helps in these situations to take her mind off whatever starts to overwhelm her, think I start to get more upset when it happens out in public as I can just feel other people starting to look when she’s telling me to shut up etc and I just want the ground to swallow me up at that point

That's a good idea about offering the headphones if you can see that things are tricky - I think that often sharing noticing those early warning signs helps them start to notice them too.

That's interesting about the maths questions. I'm wondering whether you not knowing the answer is triggering her? Or whether she is trying (but not always quite succeeding) to regulate for herself by thinking about a maths question. It would be an interesting question to ask her at a time when she's calm and see if she can tell you because my approach would be quite different depending on where this is coming from.........

Shops can be very challenging for autistic people. It’s a huge sensory overload - bright lights, loads of people, lots of noise, people in your personal space. It can just be too much.

meltdowns are rarely one thing alone. If you think about jenga, it’s one thing on top of the other on top of the other until it all comes crashing down. They will likely be some very small things that don’t seem like things to you, but they will be very important to her.

I feel that you need to read as much as you can about autism and start to figure her out. You will start to see that ah that’s why she does this or that and you can then start to talk to her about it, not referencing autism obviously, but just the challenge itself. There are loads of books on emotions and becoming more emotionally illiterate. Validating with her that she was really upset that time and how it resonated with you because you’ve felt like before. Ask her how it felt and ask her to talk about it. Ask her what else has made her feel like that before. You will jointly start to build up a map of her triggers and you can talk about them together. It sounds like she feels alone in her difficulties and a lot of the things you’ve mentioned sound like she’s angry with you for not helping her to manage her emotions in that timeframe. You’re doing all the wrong things and she’s angry because she wants to feel understand and supported. Instead she feels overwhelmed and needs the tv to calm her down and soothe herself.

Its hard but identifying the problem is the first step. You’ll get there

Most of her questions are maths related and I never understand why because she says she doesn’t like maths and even though she isn’t too bad at it, it’s probably the subject her teacher says she needs help with the most in school too.
sometimes we’ll be in the middle of doing things at home or out and she’ll be like “ask me a maths question” or she’ll see the price of something in a shop say it’s £9.99 and say how many of them could I buy if I had £10,000”
if we are at home and I can Google an answer to something quick she’s quite happy, but if I don’t know the answer to something it triggers her off

Hhhmmmm interesting. I don't know another child where this is a trigger, but based on things which have worked for us/friends with other things you could try:

• Keeping a special book in your handbag and writing maths questions into it to work on together (google!) at home
• Keeping a calculator in your handbag and encouraging her to answer her own maths questions
• Practicing not knowing the answer to maths questions at home in a safe space. Challenging each other to sit with the not knowing for a while before looking it up. Talk about how it feels in your body when the problem is unsolved, and how it feels when it is solved.
• Learning about some famous maths problems which have no solution and discussing how that feels for the mathematicians working on them. How does it feel in their body? How do they manage?

I'd also just double check with the teacher that there aren't issues in maths class at school if she's finding this so tricky at home. It might be that the reason she dislikes maths is because she feels dysregulated in it.

Ok, autistic people will have their safe thing in stressful situations and it sounds like for her it’s maths related things. It’s a precise thing she can tick off inside and she will get a sense of order from knowing that something has a definite answer. Order is very important to autistic people. Everyone presents very differently in this regard. I’ve seen people line things up when they’re dysregulated,
or people tidy up, other times it’s reciting facts - they are all things that make that person feel comforted by there being a sense of order and predictability to the world. Particularly when they are in an uncomfortable place caused by sensory issues. A point to note is that autistic people, girls included, will very often want to do something (like go shopping) but they find that they just can’t manage it. And that’s quite frustrating which doesn’t help either.

Will deffo give these a try, thank you 😊
it’s quite hard to keep up with her, at the moment and for the last few months it’s maths, one day it will just switch and it’ll be another subject, she will ask random questions on.
i would love to just get inside her head sometimes and be able to see what’s going on in there

Yes I have noticed order has always been a big thing with her since a young age for instance if she’s in to a certain music album to listen to in the car we have to listen to the same songs in song order, if I ever played the wrong order to a certain album she wouldn’t be able to handle that and also if I get a call and the music stops or if something distracts her halfway through a song she has to have that song started again so that she can sing it all through with no distractions.
and at night time after she’s got in to bed I always go in to another room and sort her uniform and things ready for the morning, I have to let her know that I’ve done xyz in the same order for her, then tell her when I’m done, then tell her when I’m walking down the stairs, if anything changes in the order I do things or if I don’t let her know I’m done then she instantly becomes agitated.

I just want to mention, positively, about having a TV in a bedroom.
I'm 55 now and can still remember trying to get to sleep in a silent bedroom as a young child & just how much my imagination would run away & think of horrible & frightening things, I just hated bedtime. But then I got a cassette player & it was life changing. I would leave it playing & fall asleep long before the tape ended. Then as I was a bit older I got a TV in my bedroom.
Still now I get to sleep quickly with some kind of background noise, whether it's a TV, listening to a podcast or even playing Scrabble on my phone.

I've been married for 35 years & my husband still can't get over how I can regularly fall asleep within 10 minutes whilst watching the TV.
We're all wired differently, some people like cheese some people don't, but they don't "shout" at each other about who's right. So why do people get judgemental about people who need noise to sleep?

How old is the baby?

It sounds like PDA to me (and a lot like my DS.) Have you spoken to your GP?

Assumjng it is PDA then comments like : Stop giving in in all respects she’s the boss are complete bollocks. Her behaviour will be being driven by extreme anxiety and getting in a Mexican standoff with her will only make it worse (and you'll never win, trust me.) Basically, distraction, deflection, reverse psychology, humour, depersonalising the request (by having a teddy or something make it instead) are all effective as strategies.

Yes my partner also uses the tv to go to sleep, I personally prefer to go to sleep in a dark silent room and always have preferred to but he usually goes to bed before me, tv on and is sleeping with 10 mins, as you said everyone is different and if listening to a tv helps my daughter to clear her mind enough to sleep I don’t see no wrong in it

Baby is turning 1 this week

Heavens above. You’ve never before realised that she’s autistic?

Well, I guess you know now and you can get her the help that she needs. You may or may not know that girls can be difficult to diagnose, because they have to assessed in 2 different environments, usually home and school and girls generally mask at school. It can someone with a keen eye to understand that she is autistic at school because she’s likely to go under the radar. You’re going to have to start keeping a list of all the key bits of evidence under the following columns:

repetitive behaviours
sensory difficulties
relationships and social communication aspects
meltdown triggers
what works for her/what doesn’t work for her

You mention that her interests switch about. You might want to look into autistic with adhd although I believe she is primarily autistic.

The term aspire girl isn’t in fashion any more but have a look at this list - might be enlightening for you and is more apt for girls than the diagnostic lists that you find on the internet which don’t generally apply to girls - the-art-of-autism.com/females-and-aspergers-a-checklist/

I’m hoping to get an appointment with the gp this week, I haven’t bothered going before now as each time I have tried speaking to her teacher I’ve left feeling like it’s pointless as he basically said “you can go to the gp if you want to, but because we don’t see anything in school then nothing will really happen as an assessment will take in to consideration what we see”
but it really is getting to the point now where I need help with her, my brain can’t take anymore and it’s not fair on her, I can see how much it’s effecting her and if I can get an assessment maybe it will help her to understand that she’s not wrong or naughty and that I’m not “mean” it’s just we have to do things differently for a reason.
I had not heard of PDA before writing this thread so has been helpful as have been looking up on that.
that’s exactly how I feel, when I talk to to people about a meltdown, she will 100% not back down to a standoff it’s completely pointless as all it does is make things 1000x worse and it’s like fighting a losing battle.
i do find distraction works a lot of the time.
when we had to get up dressed and ready this morning, I knew as soon as I walked in the room that “come on let’s get dressed” wasn’t going to work so I had to put on this stupid accent for 20 mins 😂 and basically make her laugh while guiding her to the bathroom and putting her clothes out while we were joking around, and that works.

That’s so frustrating re school. It’s sadly all too common. Can you do a private ASD assessment? I would recommend it because you can find assessors that are trained in working with high masking girls. Many unfortunately are not. Just a word of advice, PDA generally although not always is recognised as a distinct form of autism. More likely she would get the ASD label but tbh knowing and understanding strategies for her and you to use is the useful thing that comes from familiarity with PDA. It’s basically lower demand parenting.

I should say, can I suggest that you take your time to get informed and collect evidence before approaching school and GP again or you’re likely to be fobbed off. That checklist might help trigger some thoughts for you.

I think I’ve always thought there was something not right, or when she was smaller that she’s just a bit particular/OCD and very strong willed.
But the older she’s getting and the longer she’s not ‘grown out of it’ like many people said she would when she was little then the more I sort of know it.
Yes I’ve brought it up the last year but her teacher says he sees nothing and has no concerns blah blah, never misbehaves in school and that I won’t get far with an assessment because they need to take how she is in school in to consideration which is why I’ve kept putting off going to the gp the last year because he’s made me feel like it’s pointless.
she does mask very well I see that myself.
when she goes to friends sleepovers, she’s the best behaved there, on play dates after school etc she’s always described as ‘so quiet’ so when I actually say to the other mums “oh I wish you could see her at home” or if I ever say to them she can’t come over for a play date as she’s been having a bit of a meltdown at home they just look at me stupid like I’m describing a different child.
even when I pick her up from play dates she’s well behaved when I’m there then as soon as we leave, get in to the car, shut the door then BAM the other side of her comes pouring out as she’s been holding it in the whole time.

thank you will have a look

How to deal with meltdowns in public? 😅😅😅 Try to steer them a bit away from people if possible, try not to react/overreact because my nervous system is firing every possible alarm, use deescalation tactics like making myself small and controlling my voice so it's very quiet, slow and non-threatening, move slowly like they are a frightened animal (because basically, in meltdown, they are), try to catch eye of concerned strangers and smile or mouth "We're OK thanks" or "He's with me", develop a rhino like hide for judgement, keep repeating noncommital phrases like "We can talk about it at home/later".

You might like Robyn Gobbel's book Big Baffling Behaviours. The Possum brain she describes is a very good description of masking or a freeze response.

With the school thing what you need to have happen is to find one teacher, closely connected to her, who believes that she is autistic/ADHD and they will then be able to spot the signs even if she is masking well.

One of the easiest ways to do this is video a few of these meltdowns and show them to someone who DD has a good relationship with. Try and get the video from as early as possible, right through to hitting/biting/kicking stage. It feels horrible or disloyal doing it but school won't believe about the behaviour unless they see it.

I'd also suggest instead of asking about autism directly you ask some questions like "How are her friendships?" "How is her imaginative play" "How does she manage when plans change suddenly?" "Is she empathetic to her friends?" "How does she manage with the noise in assembly or at dinner time?"

What a shame. That’s so hard. The good thing is that there is SO much awareness now in the public and in information sources (official and social media) so it will be easier for you to gain a better understanding very quickly, her to develop her own self understanding and family/friends too. Have a follow of Pete Wharmby on fb - he is becoming a very well regarded commentator on autism and adhd and was a former school teacher too. He is AuDHD too. Great guy. He’s written a couple of books that I listened to on audible. Also has a YouTube channel.

Great advice

Have you read the explosive child?

also have a Google of autistic girls on YouTube - they’re not official sources but what they do do is provide a first hand insight into how it feels to be an autistic girl. Obviously each girl presents differently but you will start to get a sense of what it feels like internally for her from listening to first hand experiences.