Gentle parenting an extremely argumentative nearly 6yo, pulling my hair out

[Homesteady]

Hi, would love any tips from a gentle parenting perspective.

DD is 5, nearly 6. More and more everyday she is becoming extremely argumentative about everything and anything OR she ignores me like I'm not even there. I swear she would argue that the sky was kahki green given the opportunity. Or I'll ask a basic thing like what she'd like to wear and she just stares at me gormlessly/pretends like I didn't say anything until I've repeated myself 5 times, say okay then I'll choose triggering a meltdown. If it was once or twice then fine but its basically every interaction I have with her, all day every day.
I don't want to crush her spirit. She's going to be a tenacious adult someday and I'm here for it BUT I also believe that children should have respect for their parents.
To stop the toddler tantrums we always offered choices when she was little... Red cup or blue? And it worked. We've carried that on even now with the belief that if she has a choice then she can express her independence and not cause too much of a ruckus over basic stuff, hence asking things like what she wants to wear. And I can tell that she ignores my question when she doesn't want to do something (ie get dressed).
It feels so disheartening that she has so much freedom of choice in life and that she fights me on every single thing
I should mention we're homeschooling and although we have a set structure of learning we have a pretty child-led approach.
Basically, DD runs the house right now. She has consequences for being excessively rude or disrespectful like removal of privileges but she is still only 5 so there's only so far it can go. Once all privileges have been taken away and they still don't care? You can't exactly ground a child that young. Being in a battle of wills with a 5 year old is not a good look lol, any tips on how to nip this in the bud are more than appreciated.
Please, no negativity. x

One thing I did with my DD at that age when she was being difficult about this sort of thing (started at age 4) was make it less personal - so I’d say ‘Time to get dressed’ rather than telling her to get dressed. Then DH or I would be in the room with her saying ‘socks next, top next’ etc to keep her on track. It was frustrating, and you have my sympathy!

We also made it a rule that she always got dressed after breakfast, because I noticed that if we let her play after breakfast before going to get dressed, she was worse. So even if we weren’t going anywhere, she got dressed (same for us).

I’m going to tag @BertieBotts as she has posted some very insightful comments about gentle parenting and how it changes out of the toddler years on other threads - it might be worth you searching her posts?

I agree I am not sure exactly what you are looking for from your post as it's very contradictory

I'll do a proper reply later but just doing bedtime now. I saw this on FB today which I really liked. It's a very good page to follow, this is a helpful post IMO regarding some of the issues that have come up here regarding boundaries, freedom of expression of child etc. Other good stuff on the page too.

https://m.facebook.com/story.php?story_fbid=654268873532798&id=100068490722118

As said I'll do a more detailed response but my initial thoughts are, you're getting a lot of pushback where people pick one word in a post (like "homeschooling") and plaster their own assumptions on it and respond based on that rather than actually asking for clarification.

And secondly that this is fairly common that you can get stuck in a way of relating which works really well for younger toddlers but isn't age appropriate any more for primary school aged children. Whether you're doing rewards and punishments or a more gentle approach, either way you want them to have some agency and develop some resilience. Don't carry on protecting her forever from the consequences of her decisions. That's something that's age appropriate if they are truly too little to understand, or too terrible to come to pass. She is of an age where there needs to be responsibility equal to her agency. I don't think you have to run a family like a dictatorship, but equally it should not be run with little miss as the princess royal and you all tiptoe around her trying to ensure that she never experiences any unpleasant feelings ever.

I think you have to be quite confident to successfully gentle parent and you have to be really unafraid of them having emotions and experiences which might be difficult, and sort of see it as your role to be their rock in the storm, not an umbrella in the storm. I definitely struggled to transition out of this after attachment parenting. That's not an uncommon pattern at all.

There's sort of a foundation upon which any kind of good parenting is built and the books just sort of assume that you already have this. There aren't a lot of resources which explicitly talk about it. There are some. Janet Lansbury has some excellent writing about it though I find her recent stuff to be not so helpful, go back in the archives to the earlier writing.

Calm the chaos has a great "road map" where you figure out where you are and work from there layer by layer.

A book called When Your Kids Push Your Buttons is fantastic.

Have you got a copy of How to Talk so Kids Will Listen and Listen So Kids Will talk? I'd recommend rereading the chapter on engaging cooperation. And consider getting the original if you only have the little kids one. She's basically aged out of the little kids version now.

Tbh I found my dd at that age was overwhelmed with choice. Rather than saying "what would you like to wear" just send her up to her wardrobe to get something but only ever have like 5 tops and 5 bottoms jn it. Tv/ipads/toys out happens after she's dressed.

This. Let her experience life, other children, how to negotiate, that she can’t have her own way always…

Sorry but this made me laugh. Zen in your life? Seems that absolute opposite of what your life is like at the moment or where it will be like when your child becomes a teenager.

I have an incredibly wilful and defiant child and if I didn't parent him strictly he would have run absolute circles around me.

@Homesteady OK, to me this situation is very common, makes perfect sense and isn't opposing at all. This is only based on my experience, and you may definitely disagree based on what you know of your own home situation.

For context, I love hearing, encouraging and validating every single one of my students' ideas and needs. When they're not behaving in an ideal way, I really, really believe in positive reinforcement and redirection as the best solution. I generally will adapt the activity to the kids as much as possible, sometimes changing it altogether on the spot.

However, I have taught quite a few kids at preschool who utterly melt down upon being separated from their parents, even though I'm genuinely one of the nicest (and clearly modest 😆) teachers around. I really hate to say this, because I know this makes me sound like a child hating Victorian disciplinarian, but genuinely, my colleagues and I immediately know: these are usually only children with no siblings, who are used to unlimited time and attention lavished upon them. Their parents may sometimes get impatient with them, but ultimately these children are the absolute centre and focus of their parents' world. This is almost always confirmed later on as we get to know the parents.

Everyone is fixating on choices, but personally I think the bigger thing is actually time/attention.

So an example of 1) choices – sometimes, kids have to do things they don't want to. So for example, when I'm bringing the kids to the toilet during break time, all of them have to go whether they want to or not, or they'll be left alone in the classroom which is a safety issue.

2. Time/attention – following on from above, maybe the child will eventually agree to go to the toilet after a lengthy persuasion / negotiation / thought process, but I just don't have the time (as the lesson time is running down) or focus (as I have many other kids, who are waiting or starting to run around, to take care of) for that. But the child expects me to give them their sole and full attention and to wheedle or wait for them for as long as it takes.

As another example, I wouldn't be able to endlessly debate a kid about the colour of a pencil or whatever. How I usually approach it – and how most teachers and parents would approach it – would be with a good natured laugh, say "oh yes you're right" or "oh really? we see it totally differently" (an important lesson for her to learn is that all people see things differently). Or they might turn it into a quick learning point about turns of phrase or colour theory.

But if it goes on for too long, I'll just have to say nicely "OK, you can sit here and figure out the colour, and we're going to do xyz activity, but you can join us when we want to, okay?" Cue kid feeling left out and ignored.

The thing is, sitting out rarely happens, and they do very quickly learn to go along with their peers, but then they clearly feel ignored by the adult and hurt. Plus I suppose it takes an emotional toll not being allowed to have their way. That's why they melt down the next time they have to come in, based on what I see.

The other thing is that I'm not an impatient teacher (again, so modest 😂) but I have had my patience tested internally, and I have seen other teachers be quite harsh towards children like that too, so your DD may also possibly have experienced that. Sometimes as a safety or classroom order issue, I will have to be harsh, and there is no time for wheedling or negotiation or reassurance there.

(Btw to be honest, I also found your posts confusing. I'm not sure if it's minor normal kid chattiness or if it really disrupts the structure and routine of the day. Those are 2 different things!)

@Homesteady also, saying this in a neutral way and not as a good or bad value judgment: I think forest school prob has a more child-led and permissive ethos, and flexible schedule/curriculum, than normal clubs for children, which may be why this is happening at clubs and not forest school if I understood your post correctly?

And also, can't edit the above post but I meant to write: "you can join us when YOU want to"

If this is your idea of defiance or being “argumentative” then I feel really sorry for your DD.

She is allowed to disagree with you on all manner of things - and the examples you have given certainly aren’t big things.

You sound as if you don’t particularly like her personality and find her annoying. This might just be the way she is.

One of mine is a complete “know it all” and he certainly hasn’t grown out of it even at 10. We can laugh about it though and he even catches himself doing it at times now, and manages to stop himself! He is also very clever and very literal.

I doubt that your neighbours are at home all day, they must leave the house sometimes. Why are you annoyed by a tiny child having a different opinion to you, on quite neutral topics?!

And please don’t describe a 5 year old as having an “attitude”, it’s ridiculous.

Yes to post above – I just want to emphasise that I meant parents who don't practise any named style of parenting when I wrote: "How I usually approach it – and how most teachers and parents would approach it – would be with a good natured laugh, say "oh yes you're right" or "oh really? we see it totally differently" (an important lesson for her to learn is that all people see things differently). Or they might turn it into a quick learning point about turns of phrase or colour theory."

I actually have nothing against gentle parenting, which I believe uses natural consequences which are great. But I think maybe it's worth bearing in mind that not everything has to be a democratic mutual agreement between two equals, least of all trivial things like hair colour or figurative speech. Children are annoying little sods most of the time (though they do often have a point)!

My little one absolutely adores these (but I mix in different types of marbles, so there’s a good selection). https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/133719866841?mkcid=16&mkevt=1&mkrid=711-127632-2357-0&ssspo=zWahnZ3SRj-&sssrc=4429486&ssuid=0hqxfj0aTEC&var=&widget_ver=artemis&media=COPY

@Homesteady I think you’ll have to understand first why she is arguing like this.

You mention using that as a delaying tactic.

A friend of mine had a dd who was very similar, arguing that white was black etc…. This was very clearly encouraged by her mum who was praising her for her understanding, how great she was etc… as well as encouraging that sort of discussion. So her dd saw arguing any position as a very positive thing to do.

ive seen children using that as a way to get attention.

And then let’s be honest, sometimes you just disagree with things (I’ve had a long discussion with a friend on whether her hair was blond or brown….)

All of those are possibilities and I suspect there are some more.
Abd yur answer will (And should!) be different in each case.
Delaying tactic: we’ll talk about it later on.
Having a different pov: discuss it
Attention: finding out first why she feels more attention from you and then deal with that
etc…l

@alchemisty i think you are right re possibly been so used to getting the OP’s attention that she struggles with not being in her centre of attention.

it is yet another possibility.

It sounds like your daughter is pushing boundaries but it’s also becoming habit forming. When she starts being contrarian for the sake of it, don’t engage. When the time is right, offer a distraction. She’ll soon become bored of it when she sees that you’re not taking the bait.

I should mention we're homeschooling and although we have a set structure of learning we have a pretty child-led approach.

Send her to school & she will have to fit into a schedule. Most children (and adults) thrive on some sort of routine.

Don't give her the responsibility for making the decision - offer her 2 choices for what to wear for example.

I honestly don't think gentle parenting works. Children need an adult to be in charge & feel unsettled without that. I'm not criticising your choice btw. I teach & many years of experience tells me that if you're too nice kids will take advantage. Unfortunately you have to be hard on them to get their respect.

I couldn't agree more

The examples of arguments you give are all a bit something and nothing though?

'That lady has pink hair'

'No she doesn't mummy it's orange'

'Oh really darling my eye sight must be going funny'

Have a giggle and move on 🤷‍♀️

That's just a 5yo being a 5yo.

My dd could argue black is white and I learnt not to argue back as it's pointless, just make mm mmmming noises and move the conversation on.

Including the OP who doesn't appear to be using consequences and boundaries.

OP, I understand that you come at parenting from a difficult place and all parents will tell you the parenting is probably the hardest job you ever do, even if it's the most rewarding. But you aren't doing gentle parenting. You are doing laisez-faire permissive parenting and it isn't meeting your child's needs or your own.

I suspect that this is mainly about you though. You are so worried about repeating the mistakes from your own childhood that you are not being the adult in this relationship. My advice would be to seek therapy to help you become the adult your daughter needs you to be. I'd also think very seriously about school. Because of your own history, it will be even harder for you to be an effective home educator, providing the education, nurturing and social development that your child needs. Why not let professionals do the education so that you can concentrate on nurturing?

@tattygrl

The genius of the people who promote "gentle parenting" is that nobody ever "gets it right". It's a beautiful, pure ideal that is completely unattainable.

It's like communism. Nobody gave it a chance

The anxiety is a direct result of the gentle parenting.

The two children I know best who are 'gently parented' are extremely anxious kids. One freaks out if he doesn't leave for school in time to give himself at least ten minutes waiting in line outside. The other one still gets up nightly and climbs in with her parents , at age 9.

I can empathise OP - your DD sounds very like my eldest son (now 6.5) who went through a long and exhausting phase like this from about his 5th birthday onwards. I don't exactly know if I practise gentle parenting, but I certainly believe in calmness, listening to my son, and natural consequences. All this being said, he has tested me to the utmost.

Things that helped me:

• Announcing not asking - and briskly, "Right, time to get dressed now" instead of "please can you ..."
• Telling him what's next, especially if he's in the middle of something - "10 more minutes then it's clothes time", "5 more minutes" etc. Also "once you're dressed, we'll have a snack/ build that toy/ go outside"
• Listening to his objections and being a teeny bit flexible eg I say "get dressed" and he says "no". I say "why" and he might say I need to finish this Lego or go fetch something ... "ok, 2 minutes for that and then you get dressed". Often he will then say "ok". I would rather give him 2 more minutes than spend the next 10 minutes arguing. But no extensions after that.
• Leaving him to get on with things. I did not pick his clothes out by age 6, he does that himself.
• Defining the rules that really really matter and never deviate. Teeth must be brushed, homework gets done before TV, no hitting, no name-calling etc. Have clear consequences that get acted on immediately.
• Don't sweat the small stuff. I couldn't get worked up about being contradicted, argue your point or just laugh about it. My hair's black?? What, like next door's cat? Miaow etc
• School. He's a bright and sociable kid, and he loves it. The routine is also a massive help during the week. We can't do x because we'll be late for school/ we won't see friend y on the way etc. I am not jumping on you for homeschooling but I would challenge you as to whether you are doing it for her, or for you.

Good luck! It's a trying age.

🙄🙄🙄

You’ve been quite keen on posts suggesting time outs and rewards - none of this is gentle parenting. It’s fine if that’s what you want to do, but just so you know.

Choose your battles is good advice as pps have said, from my experience as parent and early years and primary teacher.

Have you asked your dd what the problem is at the clubs that she is suddenly not so keen on? It could be related to changes that happen when the other children are probably mostly in school.

Perhaps, as someone suggested, the people running the clubs have expectations of what they consider age-appropriate, probably sub-conscious, about the way to manage groups. As most children will be in school at the age your dd is now, they will be used to following instructions etc, all the little assumptions which allow time to focus on the key activities. But a child who doesn’t get this and thinks they can chip in with what they think they or everyone else should do can take time away from everyone else doing the activity, (which the parents are paying for) so depending on how this is dealt with, this might be difficult for a non-schooled child. Of course some children who go to school can try to take over as well, I remember sitting through group music lessons that parents were supposed to attend and watching one child, taking up so much of the teacher’s time, and wondering why his mother didn’t just take him out and deal with it. (She’s still my friend over ten year’s later in case you think I’m too judgemental). There are times and places for individual expression at home and school/ forest school, but it’s not all the time if you want to get on with people, be safe and do things in groups.

And/or, there could be changes in the friendships at clubs depending on who knows each other at school. Maybe if they had to pair up for something for eg, your dd usually paired up with someone who now pairs up with someone who they know from school.

Maybe you could ask the teachers/Rainbow leaders if there any issues along these lines, or any other issues. Then if the first is an issue, explain to your dd about how it is kind to follow what the teachers say at clubs so that everyone has time to do lots of things. Or if the latter , perhaps you could find out from your dd/ or the teachers/leaders one or two likely candidates and see if you can build/support her friendships eg meet up at a playground or have the child and parent over for a play date after school or at the weekend.

The reason pps have suggested that maybe your daughter had some disability is because this is often a rationale for home schooling and we didn’t want to make assumptions. If the days are hard and you’re not enjoying it, it seems strange to not at least consider that the bright outgoing child you describe might not thrive at primary school. As other people have said, it might be just her/her age/ not that important behaviour , or she might be trying to tell you that things aren’t working for her

If you truly are doing the homeschooling for her, (and not to meet some need of your own) and you believe in listening to children and responding and respecting their needs, perhaps you need to at least consider that she would be happier at school.