Gentle parenting an extremely argumentative nearly 6yo, pulling my hair out

[Homesteady]

Hi, would love any tips from a gentle parenting perspective.

DD is 5, nearly 6. More and more everyday she is becoming extremely argumentative about everything and anything OR she ignores me like I'm not even there. I swear she would argue that the sky was kahki green given the opportunity. Or I'll ask a basic thing like what she'd like to wear and she just stares at me gormlessly/pretends like I didn't say anything until I've repeated myself 5 times, say okay then I'll choose triggering a meltdown. If it was once or twice then fine but its basically every interaction I have with her, all day every day.
I don't want to crush her spirit. She's going to be a tenacious adult someday and I'm here for it BUT I also believe that children should have respect for their parents.
To stop the toddler tantrums we always offered choices when she was little... Red cup or blue? And it worked. We've carried that on even now with the belief that if she has a choice then she can express her independence and not cause too much of a ruckus over basic stuff, hence asking things like what she wants to wear. And I can tell that she ignores my question when she doesn't want to do something (ie get dressed).
It feels so disheartening that she has so much freedom of choice in life and that she fights me on every single thing
I should mention we're homeschooling and although we have a set structure of learning we have a pretty child-led approach.
Basically, DD runs the house right now. She has consequences for being excessively rude or disrespectful like removal of privileges but she is still only 5 so there's only so far it can go. Once all privileges have been taken away and they still don't care? You can't exactly ground a child that young. Being in a battle of wills with a 5 year old is not a good look lol, any tips on how to nip this in the bud are more than appreciated.
Please, no negativity. x

What is your intervention though?
Cause that's the problem,
'there are other ways'
'go look at sally mays IG'
But she says the same rhyme I just said. Without taking I towards it's full consequences. What do you do if your child doesn't put the shirt on after that while gp rhyme and runs away and wriggle if you try to put it on??
And don't say catch them and put it on.
Because it's not feasible to try and hold a 6 year old down to put a shirt on.

I read something about this briefly early and it was saying that gentle parenting works well for minor 'misbehavious', however for more serious issues it's much less effective. Negative consequences/time out were a better option. Children sometimes need to be directed, it's too much for them to have so many choices, time and explanations. Especially so for children who have difficulty self regulating.

Just because you try a different technique it doesn't mean you've failed as a 'gentle parent'.

Even if the OP decides on a whim to send her child to school, she still has to parent her at home. So it's not really a solution to the parenting issue.

This is what I mean about false equivalencies - just because gentle parenting doesn't produce a child that will always put their clothes on compliantly and quickly doesn't mean it "doesn't work". No parenting style guarantees a child who snaps to and does what they're told instantly, aside from regimented authoritarianism, which has its own pitfalls and is far from what most loving parents would want for their kids.
As far as I can see with gentle/responsive parenting the intervention is that if the clothes need to get on the child, for a legitimately important reason like having to get somewhere on time, you do what you have to do, just as you would no matter what parenting style you have. Gentle parenting isn't a magic bullet, nor are any parenting styles.

The difference between "traditional" parenting and responsive parenting is that you don't enforce control over the child when it isn't absolutely necessary, nor use threats or fear to get a child to comply. Consequences are related to the problem with gentle parenting, so a child not getting dressed on time means they miss the activity, for example. A child consistently being late for or missing school because they won't get dressed, for example, clearly has deeper difficulties that need addressing.

I sincerely do recommend mammacusses, though, because she speaks with much of the same language you do, and addresses the very questions you're asking, which I am not really able to do very well because I'm (meant to be 😂) working.

Ooh I couldn't agree more. You don't have to hit and yell around every corner, but you also don't want to give choices and explain the whole time.
I work in a pediatric setting and I can tell spot the gentle parented kids from a mile..

And in my friend group. Those are the kids we don't go out to restaurants etc with. 'he just 4, how can you expect him to sit still for the 2 hours we eat? `

Well uhmm why can my 3 year old sit still then?

Haha I love it. Will look at her but find it really funny that you who advocate for gp, cannot give simple answers?
Which is unfortunately what most GP parents cannot answer.

But raising a kid isn't simple? And every child is going to respond differently to every approach so I can't give a blanket, simple, black and white answer. It would be nice if parenting was like that but it isn't, obviously.

I'm going to say that possibly its not working - she's only 5 so whats made you decide to home school?

(edit spelling)

My daughter had issues getting her daughter to get dressed in the morning (last year at nursery before school). DGD wouldn't choose her clothes, wouldn't put them on, argued just as you describe.
DD gave her the choice: clothes on ready for nursery or you go as you are.
She only went in her pjs once.

Actions (or lack of them!) have consequences- a very important life lesson.

@Ohhbaby this is a good example of natural consequences in line with GP! I couldn't really think of a good example.

@Homesteady

homeschooling works for us, so no.”

children learn such a lot at school not just academically but socially and relationally too. Sometimes kids just have to conform and carry out tasks adults want them to do even if the child doesn’t - school is great for helping kids learn this

Hmm see I don't fully agree because gentle parenting says you don't give consequences that aren't natural, so like you say if they're not dressed they miss the activity. That's a natural consequence. But if you have an appointment to go to you cannot just let natural consequences teach behaviour.
And then you say do what you've got to do?
What does that mean? Can't hold the kid down so you have to use threats or punishments then which is categorically not GP.

See the comment I tagged you in about having to go out in pyjamas if refusing to get dressed.

You're right this is a good example of natural consequences.
But my question relates to different situations. The easy ones are what draw us to gp. The hard ones they can't answer. Dirty nappy, child doesn't want to get you to change that?
Child happily undressed but runs sway naked as you try to dress them. Natural consequences will be going to the doctors office or preschool naked, but that's not feasible in winter now is it.

She has already learnt that she can be more powerful than you.
you have lost this battle and lost her respect.

She does need stronger boundaries. school might do that. she needs a bigger environment to grow herself.

This is a good example of why gentle parenting is a joke.
for kids to feel safe you need to show them you are more pwerful than a five year old.
talk to more parents and give your DD a new regime.

I believe that GP includes having to "force" a child to do essential things they don't want to do, such as changing a dirty nappy even if they're not happy about it. Everything I've read/heard about GP would be that you validate and accept that the child isn't happy and has their feelings about this, but that the need for hygiene and safety trumps that and you change the nappy anyway, as you would in any parenting style. Permissive parenting would be leaving a child in a dirty nappy because they've said "no" to having it changed (well, that would be neglect ofc).

I haven't actually come across any gentle parenters who would argue that it's better to let a child run around naked outdoors in winter, or leave a child in a dirty nappy - I think that's a bit of a straw man. Those options would be pure neglect. Having to force a child to do something for safety reasons isn't against GP as I know it. The ways that GP differs from traditional parenting is that force isn't used unnecessarily. Obviously, at times with children, it IS necessary, for safety etc.

I think I raised my dcs in a similar way than you.
My aim was to give them as much independence as I could and as they could handle.

I think there is a limit though.
In the examples you are giving, I would have scooped her (or take her by her hand) and taken her back to her room. And I would have waited with her.
I stuck to those boundaries hard, as I never went back on them. But I also chose what I was ready to fight for carefully iyswim.
I did a lot if counting to 3 too lol.

I sincerely don’t think you need to raise your voice, punish, remove privileges or use a ‘carrot’ to see your dc behave.
Usually following through EVERY TIME and clear expectations are enough.

'Parenting the strong-willed child' is a book that might help

A few PP have asked, but can I ask why you're homeschooling? It works brilliantly in many cases, such as for neurodivergent children, but some children may be much more suited for a normal school environment.

As a former educator, kids start listening to their parents a lot less at 5+ years old — but begin to be very keen on copying certain other people! All too often kids refuse to do a certain thing at home, then they go to school and see all their little friends doing it at school, and they also really, really want to impress the nice teachers Ms Brown and Mr White. To their parents' amazement, they go home and magically do it. I saw this happen literally every day, right in front of my eyes.

As you say, she's a doll with other adults. Again, what I saw every single day as a former educator, and what all research shows, is that peer learning/modelling is a HUGE part of child development. So is exposure to other figures of authority (and please don't shudder at this word, what I mean is anyone in a position to offer guidance and nurturing).

It's extremely well-documented in the research that as kids move into middle childhood (6-8 years old), they start seeking independence from their family, and wanting a lot more contact with the larger world. No matter how diverse and structured your homeschooling curriculum is, peer and other exposure is very important for motivation and development. If you're not keen to let go of the homeschooling, could you maybe put a lot more of an emphasis on social learning (with kids her age) in the homeschool curriculum? (Also, this might not be the case, but if she's not already well-socialised with good SEL skills, it may take quite a bit of adjustment/settling in, but it's very worth it.)

Be her parent because right now you are THAT parent. Your dd will pay the price for it.

I use gentle parenting too OP, so I get you. Ignore the pp who dont fully understand what it is and think it simply means being permissive or "being snowflakes". They don't understand it. I also had a similar childhood to you by the sounds of it, and similar concerns when I became a mum. It's hard.

My son is very spirited and I've been through this. I found the book Raising Your Spirited Child very helpful, as was How to Talk so Little Children Will Listen, and also The Book You Wish Your Parents Had Read. You may have already read these so apologies if I'm suggested things you already know.

With my son I used a lot of the the strategies in these books to turn everything into a game - exhausting - and my teaching experience to focus on the positive wins to pour energy into praise and rewards and offer minimal response to negative behaviours - not rewarding them basically. When a line was crossed I would step in and, for example, dress him myself if absolutely necessary, but it wasn't needed much once I employed all the techniques.

You've said home schooling works for you and I'm not about to bash that idea, but purely from the info you've offered I wonder if there is any scope to somewhat evaluate your set up again in light of how BOTH of you are finding things currently? I'm a teacher and could not homeschool and nor would I feel equipped or knowledgeable enough to do so, so I can only imagine the huge sense of responsibility on your shoulders. You sound like you're finding parenting hard at the moment and I've totally been there, and your DD also sounds like she's not having so much fun.

I just wondered if there's any kind of alternative schooling near you that would suit your family needs, values and ideology, and also provide DD with some new faces, a different structure and yourself a break from the constant responsibility?

This post says it very harshly, and not kindly, but….I think it’s true. Send her to school. It sounds like she is a child who would thrive much more with variety in her day, her social circle, the structure of her day etc.

she sounds so resentful and frustrated, poor thing. I feel claustrophobic just hearing about it.

You love her and want the best for her, that is beyond question - so you’re already nothing like your parents were OP. Please give yourself permission to follow mainstream parenting and schooling a little more. When you see the positive results, you’ll all be a bit happier.

I say this as someone who is less traditional and perhaps slightly more permissive or “gentle” than some parents (and my partner certainly is!) and we have a wilful and independent thinker of around the same age, too - but doesn’t have tricky behaviour like your daughter. Our child goes to nursery/school and absolutely thrives there. It’s a real pleasure to see.

I’m sure op is long gone. However, your child is not you op and you are not your parents. You’re not redoing your childhood but doing it perfect, you’re doing your daughter’s childhood and it will be completely different because she is different and you are too. Also she and you are human and you will make mistakes but generally things will work out ok. Theories are not real life. You’ve been a parent long enough to know that you have read the books but your child has not. Try and give her what she needs and not what you think a book says she does, how can a theory in a book possibly work for all humans all the time?

Children need boundaries to push against. You’ve given her no boundaries so she’s going to be universally adversarial. Add to that she has no authority figures in her life which means she’s never had to follow the rules of an adult. I honestly think you have created a difficult situation and you’re now going to have to carefully navigate it.