Gentle parenting an extremely argumentative nearly 6yo, pulling my hair out

[Homesteady]

Hi, would love any tips from a gentle parenting perspective.

DD is 5, nearly 6. More and more everyday she is becoming extremely argumentative about everything and anything OR she ignores me like I'm not even there. I swear she would argue that the sky was kahki green given the opportunity. Or I'll ask a basic thing like what she'd like to wear and she just stares at me gormlessly/pretends like I didn't say anything until I've repeated myself 5 times, say okay then I'll choose triggering a meltdown. If it was once or twice then fine but its basically every interaction I have with her, all day every day.
I don't want to crush her spirit. She's going to be a tenacious adult someday and I'm here for it BUT I also believe that children should have respect for their parents.
To stop the toddler tantrums we always offered choices when she was little... Red cup or blue? And it worked. We've carried that on even now with the belief that if she has a choice then she can express her independence and not cause too much of a ruckus over basic stuff, hence asking things like what she wants to wear. And I can tell that she ignores my question when she doesn't want to do something (ie get dressed).
It feels so disheartening that she has so much freedom of choice in life and that she fights me on every single thing
I should mention we're homeschooling and although we have a set structure of learning we have a pretty child-led approach.
Basically, DD runs the house right now. She has consequences for being excessively rude or disrespectful like removal of privileges but she is still only 5 so there's only so far it can go. Once all privileges have been taken away and they still don't care? You can't exactly ground a child that young. Being in a battle of wills with a 5 year old is not a good look lol, any tips on how to nip this in the bud are more than appreciated.
Please, no negativity. x

With respect, that’s all just “good” parenting. The silly misnomer of “gentle”, “permissive” etc leads to all kinds of trouble because it means that it’s so often misinterpreted in the way the OP seems likely to have done.

We don’t need to pick a “style” of parenting like we’re picking out baby names, or decor colours. We just need to be good parents. All parenting is hard, good parenting is also more intuitive. Empathy and sympathy, as you’ve described, with boundaries and consequences. Just like all our other successful human interactions. It doesn’t tend to be any more complicated or prescriptive than that.

And that includes not worrying about sticking to a “style”

Out of interest, where did you learn the concept of “gentle parenting “ as when I stumble of videos of people talking about it they are usually at their wits end / crying and have very unhappy children.
Gentle parenting really isn’t about offering two cups etc . Gentle parenting is guiding your children into calm happy adults without screaming / shouting / hitting and constantly losing your shit. And most of all, it’s about forgiving and forgetting. Unconditional love.
You’re doing your child a disservice to be treating her completely differently to how others will. Her school teachers are not going to be gaffing about waiting for her to pick a cup and neither will her future employers, colleagues and partners.
Forgot what you’ve seen on instagram / TikTok etc. Use your own eyes to look
around and see what kids seem happy, calm, grounded and embracing life, then copy those parents. I will 100000000% guarantee you that they are not following the misconception of gentle parenting.

I haven’t read the thread fully but I have read all the OP.
this was very much like my DD now 7. I also came from an angry household and have had to really work on my own anger.
a couple of things to consider that might relate.

with my DD it has become completely clear that her blood sugar rules her moods. And she’s very picky and hard to feed. After a meal you have about an hour before she dips again- so we found frequent snacking makes a huge difference. We are trying to get a referral to explore pre diabetes as a cause.

we also realised that setting strong boundaries helped a lot, but we had to be super careful about language. She was really internalising the idea that she was a bad kid- ‘stop being naughty’. She responds so much better to ‘not putting your socks on is not good behaviour, what mummy would like you to do is put them on without shouting, now. If you don’t put your socks on mummy is going to count to 3, at three you’ll lose some tv time later’ but really calmly. If she does the good behaviour, lots of praise ‘well done that was great behaviour’, and if she hit 3, ‘ok you’ve lost tv time, but you can get it back if you do x really nicely’- the formula is, name the bad behaviour, set out clearly a good alternative. Propose sanction, follow through on it but always allow a route to undo the sanction. Reinforce that you love them but not the action.

when the situation is resolved taking time to say ‘sorry mummy got cross, but I’m not angry at you, just at your behaviour. You are a good kid, we just need to work on doing things when mummy asks etc.

on top of this I have to accept that still she needs help getting dressed, and it’s better for us to gently help her than to leave her to her own, if that eventually leads to me losing my temper and shouting.

we also say to her, we don’t like days when there’s shouting, it makes us all sad, so let’s work together to shout less.

always apologise for shouting or losing your temper. That means she learns to do the same when she loses it.

i think with my DD over time she came to feel that she wasn’t very loved, and we really had to unpick that and rebuild trust, her behaviour and our bond is SO MUCH better now.

we did have to asses everything we were doing and recognise none of it was really working, and go back to scratch.

lastly- the part about growing up in an angry family. For me, I was definitely struggling with anger that was related to my stuff (issues with my parents or work) that I couldn’t properly allow myself to feel or express was sometimes being expressed at my DD and she fundamentally could read that, and I think felt a bit unloved, and also had a deep sense of unfair treatment which was making her angry and really badly behaved. I had some therapy to help me understand the things that were really making me deeply angry, and now that is more in awareness I basically don’t get cross or angry with my kids in the same way at all. It’s been super helpful.

no idea if thats relevant here but just in case! Good luck x

By the sounds of it she has free-range choice in every aspect of her life.

That's not fair. On anyone.

Sometimes they have to realise that you need someone in charge and it's not always them

This is why I find democracy a total ballache.

You’re over thinking everything. If your child doesn’t want to get dressed when she’s mooching about the house, just leave her, that’s no big deal, hurts no one . You don’t own her or control her, you guide her. However, if she doesn’t want to get dressed when you have work / she has school / you need her dressed for what ever reason then that’s non negotiable… she’s getting dressed!
Talk to her all the time. Let her know the realities of life! “Hey daughter you can stay in your pyjamas all day if you like were not going anywhere. You need to get dressed quickly when we have school though because otherwise the teachers have a go at me and it worries me / when I’m going to work though because do you know why mummies have to go to work?? … to pay the bills, to pay the mortgage etc”
Have all of these conversations when you’re not fighting with her, on the good days.

Send her to school, to learn to socialise, have variety in her day, and learn the lesson that sometimes we don’t get to make all the decisions.

Give her boundaries and send her to school.

It might help your homeschooling routine if you started each day with a bit of outdoor time after breakfast. This would also provide a clear reason for getting dressed. Just a thought.

How do I take away for example choice of clothes when she doesn't want to get dressed in the first place? X

But she has to get dressed - you have to take charge here, she doesn't get to decide not to get dressed.
Think forward 10 years, it will be horrific if you don't take control now. Your her parent not her friend - it's your job to teach her how to do life. Oh,and send her to school please

*you're

Going to try and say this as gently as possible. Long background with early years children.
Most “gentle parents” are actually control freaks (sorry 🙈, we all have personality flaws so don’t let this wind you up too much)
They have babies and really struggle with the fact that the babies / children don’t do as they say or expected. But as they are control freaks they cannot cope with this loss of control. The gentle parenting movement plays on this.
All of a sudden, it seems like there is a way to feel as if you are in control again because this is how you CHOOSE to parent. Most gentle parents actually have an insane amount of rules and a lot of them are really unnecessary.
There is usually a constant barrage of rules and negotiating that goes on from dusk until dawn. It’s exhausting for the kids and they tune out to your voice.
The control freak in them makes them so afraid to be judged that they are constantly setting rules (that are constantly broken) Don’t jump
on the sofa, get dressed, do this do that. When actually, most kids do jump on sofas and most parents just give up caring. Kids will be kids. And they certainly don’t care what anyone else thinks about their kids jumping on the sofas.
Most gentle parents home school. They’ll tell themselves that it’s because of one thing but actually it’s because you don’t think you’ll be able to get her there/ get her to fit it/ get her to get dressed / get her to be happy there.
A gentle parent will sit in a restaurant with their kid going wild and act like it’s not happening but when they get home they’ll be tears and tantrums for hours on all sides. Because they are so afraid of what other people think! Which is really silly because people are thinking much worse when you do this. Every other parent is willing you to pick that kid up and fireman’s lift it out the building, screaming all the way to the car 😂 You’ve left your dinner, there will be a ten minute tantrum, but they won’t do it again and you will have gained the kudos from all the other parents that were fed up with your kid too.
Is essence gentle parenting is a cover up for the fact that these little humans are sometimes very annoying and are capable of winning battles with us / grinding us down and winding us up.
Be honest with yourself. Then like I said, have a look at your friends and family and switch your parenting style to whoever has happiest kids.

Its interesting that so many people have jumped on to say that homeschooling is the problem. Her studies are solid, shes literate and curious about the world. She has structured and unstructured learning opportunities, goes to various sports clubs, forest school, "school trips", has lots of time with children of various ages, adults other than us and plenty of time outdoors. Her education is not in question here. She's having an age appropriate phase of defiance and I'm looking for advice on that, not whether you think I should send her to state school. Thank you.

@Gobleki we aren't following a strictly gentle parenting regime, or any specific regime in particular. Just going with what feels right and works at the time- I just don't want to be a shouty mum. I'm curious as to gentle approaches to this situation that don't involve me losing my rag with a disrespectful 5 year old. I have to be a bit on the "management " side because I organise all the school stuff and activities etc but thats not where the problem we're having lies. Shes got major attitude 😆

A lot of people hate home schooling (I don’t, it can be great) However you are telling us that she runs your house and is currently the most important person in her little world. You have 15 years until she needs to get a job. How are you going to change her from unlikeable and unemployable between ow and then if you don’t send her to school to learn she’s not gods gift??

School isn't just about education.

The ability to build relationships and social skills is helped enormously by attending a school setting everyday. Trips, forest school, clubs are all fantastic but they aren't the same as school.

But you're sure it isn't contributing to her behaviour so school is a moot point.

Her defiance may be age appropriate but it isn't 'usual'. There's already tons of good advice on this thread that would make a big difference.

Good luck. I hope you can find a balance to improve all of your familys happiness.

“age appropriate defiance” we are telling you that’s it’s not age appropriate for a 5 year old to act like this. This is how 1.5-2.5 year olds act, before they can get a grasp on the fact that other people have jobs and lives too.

@loobylou10 she of course gets dressed eventually (if we're still on this specific example 😂) but not without a song and dance. Hopefully you all can appreciate that she isn't just getting her own way on everything all the time, but my goodness is it a fight over everything. The other side of it is im having a hard time debating every detail of the existence of the world with her non stop. Its not just not getting dressed guys, she debates me all the time over nothing.

"Ooh I like her pink hair" I say about the pink haired woman
"Thats not pink, its orange" she says, when its clearly hot pink lol 😆

"Are the neighbours home from work?" She asks
"No, they're there all day" I say
"They aren't there ALL day Mummy" she says.

"What colour shall I do your hair?" She asks, drawing a picture of me
"Well, dark brown i suppose. I like my hair its natural colour" I say
"Your hair is black mummy" she says 😂

Like I say, she would argue that the sky is green and that the moon is red if she had the chance. I'm going up the wall with it 😆

I'd like to gently suggest that the problem is she never gets a break from you because you're in charge of school as well as home life.

She can't separate herself physically from you so she separates emotionally by arguing, rudeness, adopting 'attitude', and being un-cooperative.

She's trying to tell you something that you're not willing to hear, and so are a lot of people on this thread, and you're not inclined to listen to them either.

Is your approach to her education more a form of therapy for you than something that's in your child's best interests?

It’s age appropriate for a 5 year old to fanny around a bit and be asked 2/3 times to get dressed, that’s normal, goes on in practically every household but to not be able to win that battle is not age appropriate. Usually, when you shift up your voice to full attention to I mean it now, I’m getting really annoyed, get dressed! They should get dressed.
Fannying around - normal
Sheer defiance - not normal

@gobleki the thread is quite long now, so much so that I haven't read everything yet so maybe you missed where I said she's only like it with Dad and I. She's very well behaved in settings outside the home thankfully. I'm not concerned about her thinking she's God's Gift (if a 5 year old has that deep of a thought on it) because its not blanket behaviour, its just with us.
I'll add to this one because I see you've replied again and we're going to end up having two conversations at once :)
She does do as told when I put the ultra firm voice on and tell her to "march" (not without an eye roll and a bit of lip mind). She isn't getting her own way all the time. The whole point of OP is that she's winding me up with negotiating and debating all the time and I asked for advice from a gentle parenting stand point because I'm sick of barking orders at her.

Sorry but that shows me you are a control freak. That is a normal intelligent kid.
“what colour shall I do your hair mummy” most people would say, “whatever colour you want”
”there not there ALL day”
”haha nosy Nora, how do you know, there probably not actually because they may go to the shop of something, your such a clever clogs”
”that’s not pink it’s orange”
”WHATTT, I swear to god your colour blind, that’s pink you loon hahahaha”

You dont seem to be able to consider her holistically. People are commenting on the home schooling because it will be affecting other parts of her development and engagement with you. You cant just separate out this one thing and think its not affected by other areas in her life.

You describe her as argumentative all day and over almost everything, so by definition your 'school day' is not effective.

The fact that you say she is so different with other adults and children says its a lot about the dynamic between you and her. So give some space to that by ensuring she is in someone elses 'care' during the day. Going on trips and clubs is not the same as an immersive school experience

MY friends child has pda

A few weeks ago she refuses school , I went round , told her she was going one way or the other , she makes excuses to get dressed so I said you have x mins left and then you'll be going in your pyjamas.

Lots of swearing, scowling, I hate you , ,my mums a fat x , why are you here , you're a rat , you're a dog

Count down ended She appeared fully dressed , the choices I'd given were I take her to,school, or school were picking her up

That night , I got a text from child saying , simply "I love you "

Kids NEED Rules , boundaries, and sometimes a really firm hand to make them feel safe , and assuage anxiety.

She hasn't done this since .

Honestly those conversations are so normal for a 5 year old! My son is forever arguing with me about what colour things are and my niece is the cleverest, adult conversationalist on the planet. She could give your daughter a run for her money, she corrects us on everything but she’s usually right! We think she’s a genius.