DS touched DD, WTF do I do??

[Tazzietoes]

Sorry if this is long.

DS is 7, DD was 4 at the end of August. Today DS had a friend over, who is 8 and in the year above.

They went to play outside in the garden together. DD was being a bit of an annoying little sister and it gave me memories of when I used to follow my sister and her friends around. I wasn’t watching them the whole time, but had the door open to listen and checked every few minutes to make sure they weren’t doing anything they shouldn’t.

I was making them a snack when I heard DD crying. I looked out and she was standing with her jeans and pants around her knees and both boys kneeling next to her. I hate to say it but I exploded, asked what on earth they thought they were doing and to get inside straight away. I sent DS straight ip to his room so I could calm down. I told DD I wasn’t shouting at her, she wasn’t in trouble. I asked what happened and she said that both boys touched her. I asked DS‘s friend what had happened, he said DS pulled down DD trousers and touched her. He said the whole time to stop but DS didn’t.

I went up to DS and asked him what happened. He said DD was annoying them and they wanted her to go away. He admitted touching her and said his friend did too. I repeated that what is inside pants is private and I was very shocked by his behaviour. He was almost crying which he never does, so I think he knows how serious it is.

So WTF do I do now?? DS has always had pretty poor boundaries no matter how much I‘ve tried to teach him. He always gets right in everyone’s face to the point that they push him away. I‘ve always told him that people don’t like it and he needs to back off. But it’s like talking to a brick wall.

He‘s at the age of everything being about willies and bums and poo. But he takes it too far, he keeps pulling down his trousers randomly and laughing his head off.

When he was nearly 6 there was a whole drama at school- he said an older boy (10) had touched his willy at break time. Lots of sleepless nights later, it turns out he was annoying the boy, who hit DS in between his legs. The boy said DS had been showing his willy and always trying to hug him. After this incident, we had strong words with DS about body privacy.

Just a few weeks ago he ran up behind me and pinched me where my pubic hair is. Once again, I sternly told him that what is in pants is private.

I don’t know what to do. I’m worried that DS is going to turn out to be a bad person. He just finds it all hilarious. I know the curiosity is normal but this seems like more than that. He has zero respect for other people’s bodies and obviously hasn’t listened to is when we‘ve discussed it over the years.

In all other ways he is a kind and caring boy who is doing excellent at school and has lots of friends. What should I do now??

Can you raise it with the safeguarding team at school and ask for help? See if you can get counsellors involved and maybe some assessments done.

Might the NSPCC be able to advise?

I would be very worried if I were you. He does have a very strong inclination towards being sexual with people - very bad path to go down. I feel so sorry for your dd. She was assaulted op. I would so very harshly punish this boy. Wtf.

That seems odd for 7, could he have SEN or trauma that is affecting his understanding of boundaries and what is appropriate?

Definitely worth raising with school safeguarding team/NSPCC for support for all of you.
What did the other boys parents say when you told them and how is your DD?

Im sorry
He touched her in her private parts
.its awful but just make light of it to DD and explain in no uncertain terms to Ds that is something you never do. There was nothing sexual in it so isint perverse
With all the sex education in schools targeted at young kids esp here in ireland they are exposed too early to anatomy etc etc its awful.

This is being very over sexualised. He’s 7 so there’s no sexual element to it. He was curious and looked touched which isn’t nice for anyone involved but he is just a child. He doesn’t have the same understanding as a man or teen and I think that’s really important to remember.

To add he seems to have a fascination with bums and nether regions which is a bit mad . Could be a phase? So that reasuring he was at the same thing/ idea with DD. But omg imagine that happening with a friends younger sister. Nip it in bud. Maybe he needs to be shown with a doll or something where its not ok to be exposing. Hugs to you OP

Radyward, he's been told several times not to do it again. And he keeps doing it.

@Tazzietoes - you know you cannot under any circumstances leave him unsupervised with your DD now don't you? He isn't learning from what you have said and is escalating. I'd be asking school/NSPCC for some help, but if this carries on you're going to have to make a decision about how you fully protect your DD from your DS.

Remind me again how old Robert and Jon were? 🙄

There's a natural element of "you show me yours .." but 8 is far too old and with his other behaviour I would be concerned about either undiagnosed needs or that he has experienced something and reenacting it. Either way I'd contact NSPCC today and the school safeguarding team when back at school.

@Radyward, I’ve never seen any evidence that children knowing what body parts people have would cause this sort of thing to happen and not sure where you get that idea. It’s been fairly commonplace in the past 20 or more years for parents to be quite frank when talking to young children about body parts and reproduction.

OP, I’m so sorry, this is really upsetting and I’d be pretty worried too. I think you’re right to seek advice and agree with PPs that speaking to the school safeguarding lead or the NSPCC would be appropriate. Your DS is a child and doesn’t need to be criminalised or shamed but he does need some urgent help to change his behaviour. Best of luck. 💐

Ring social services and ask for support. They will come and complete an assessment of what is needed to keep your dd safe and prevent your ds from continuing this behaviour. They might suggest a referral to camhs, it’s likely they will stop your son from having unsupervised time with children, at least for now, and I imagine they’ll want to do work with him around consent etc. They’ll also be able to support your daughter with any feelings she is having and understanding what happened was wrong. Don’t wait until the kids go back to school as if I was the school I’d be questioning why you waited. You also need to tell the other boy’s parents so they can take similar steps

Sounds like your DS has major issues. He clearly has a pattern of behaviour here. Is there a possibility that he has been indecently touched himself?

I'd be horrified by this.

OP you need to get some support dealing with this. Your priority needs to be protecting your dd BUT also your ds - sexualised behaviour at his age could indicate that he has been abused himself. This is a huge safeguarding issue for both your children (and also your son's friend). I would speak to the NSPCC for advice, but also speak to the school safeguarding team.

To add: an awful thought and not one I imagine you will want to consider, but sexualised behaviour in young children can sometimes be an indication that they themselves have been/are a victim. Hopefully that is not the case for your DS but I imagine if you get some professionals involved they may have to explore that possibility.

All the incidents you mention on there own wouldn't be too much cause for concern but altogether are presenting there is something more that being very immature for his age.

What are the male role models in his life like?

How much exposure does he have to TV shoes and films?

Are there older cousins he is privy to their conversations etc?

I would engage with a family psychiatrist who might be able to shed some light on what's going on.

Crossed posts with PPs thinking the same thing.

Oh FFS it’s NOTHING like that situation at all.

You need to speak to social services and/or school for advice. This is really worrying behaviour combined with the other incidents you mention. Don't wait until he's touched someone else's child and then all hell will break lose, not to mention the emotional harm he could potentially cause them. I also wouldn't buy his reason being that she was annoying them and he wanted her to go away. If he is telling the truth about that, I would be even more concerned that he thinks that is an acceptable way to retaliate.

No advice. But I'm so sorry this happened. Hope your DD and you are doing OK.

I'd feel the same as you and I'd have exploded as well tbh. It's nauseating to think about how confused and vulnerable DD must have felt. You did the right thing assuring her you were angry with them, not her.

I'd seek professional advice for DS. Did you speak to your DS's friends parents?

@Tazzietoes You need to speak to the other boys parents in case their son has been upset by this.
If I were you I’d explain to your son that because of his actions and choices he won’t be having any friends over and may need to be supervised at school also as he is showing that he cannot follow rules and make good choices.
I would follow it up with a call to the school to ask for support from their safeguarding trained staff and maybe also call NSPCC for some guidance and maybe resources.
FWIW I do recall showing boys my pants at a similar age in order to get a sweet that I wanted off one of them at playtime and I definitely remember seeing someone’s brothers Willy after promising to show him inside my pants- but after he showed me his Willy I ran away- probably around age 8 as well- and I haven’t turned out to be a sexual deviant. I was just curious and anything that seemed secret was more interesting!
So try not to overreact too much- but it is worrying both how persistent your sons interest seems AND his disregard for your rules and instructions.

A friend had a similar problem with her son and reported it to NSPCC, they were really helpful and investigated, in case he had been abused.

They gave her helpful suggestions of how to respond etc. In the end there was nothing sinister, just a phase which he grew out of.

This is worrying behaviour as it's not a one off and he has had multiple incidents involving inappropriate showing (of his own privates) and touching of others.

Primary schools do teach about the bodies and what is/isn't private, etc. WE cover it pretty thoroughly in Years 3 and 4 at age appropriate levels where I teach. So at the very least, the 8 year old should have had these conversations, and it's likely your 7 year old has as well to some degree.

Is there any chance he's been sexually molested by someone in his life or been exposed to sexual content on telly/movies/internet?

You must feel dreadful. I don't blame you for exploding. I was an only child and I am sure I bugged my older cousins but I can't imagine they would ever have done something like that. Children do show and tell when they are curious but it sounds like far beyond childish curiosity when your daughter was obviously unwilling and he's even touched you inappropriately.

I think the first thing you have to do is to make your daughter promise to tell you if anything like that should ever happen again - no matter what your son says. I would punish your son with the harshest punishment I could think of. My son was once accused of something slightly similar and it was just horrible that people initially believed this classmate's lies - you might have felt bad but I bet that 10 year old's parents felt worse when your son deliberately lied. I mean the punishment I would have meted out for that would have been so severe there wouldn't have been any friends visiting. He would have been taken by me to personally face that boy and his parents and apologise for lying.

I would be making sure your daughter had lots of privacy and locks on all bathrooms and he would be totally banned from her bedroom. I would be doubtful that the other boy is telling the truth - is he possibly a bad influence? Is there any chance your son has been sexually abused?

I think you need professional help.

This is horrifying and you need to act now. Private mental and behavioural assessment and no unsupervised contact with your DD. I feel sorry for your DS but your DD needs support and protection too.