DS touched DD, WTF do I do??

[Tazzietoes]

Sorry if this is long.

DS is 7, DD was 4 at the end of August. Today DS had a friend over, who is 8 and in the year above.

They went to play outside in the garden together. DD was being a bit of an annoying little sister and it gave me memories of when I used to follow my sister and her friends around. I wasn’t watching them the whole time, but had the door open to listen and checked every few minutes to make sure they weren’t doing anything they shouldn’t.

I was making them a snack when I heard DD crying. I looked out and she was standing with her jeans and pants around her knees and both boys kneeling next to her. I hate to say it but I exploded, asked what on earth they thought they were doing and to get inside straight away. I sent DS straight ip to his room so I could calm down. I told DD I wasn’t shouting at her, she wasn’t in trouble. I asked what happened and she said that both boys touched her. I asked DS‘s friend what had happened, he said DS pulled down DD trousers and touched her. He said the whole time to stop but DS didn’t.

I went up to DS and asked him what happened. He said DD was annoying them and they wanted her to go away. He admitted touching her and said his friend did too. I repeated that what is inside pants is private and I was very shocked by his behaviour. He was almost crying which he never does, so I think he knows how serious it is.

So WTF do I do now?? DS has always had pretty poor boundaries no matter how much I‘ve tried to teach him. He always gets right in everyone’s face to the point that they push him away. I‘ve always told him that people don’t like it and he needs to back off. But it’s like talking to a brick wall.

He‘s at the age of everything being about willies and bums and poo. But he takes it too far, he keeps pulling down his trousers randomly and laughing his head off.

When he was nearly 6 there was a whole drama at school- he said an older boy (10) had touched his willy at break time. Lots of sleepless nights later, it turns out he was annoying the boy, who hit DS in between his legs. The boy said DS had been showing his willy and always trying to hug him. After this incident, we had strong words with DS about body privacy.

Just a few weeks ago he ran up behind me and pinched me where my pubic hair is. Once again, I sternly told him that what is in pants is private.

I don’t know what to do. I’m worried that DS is going to turn out to be a bad person. He just finds it all hilarious. I know the curiosity is normal but this seems like more than that. He has zero respect for other people’s bodies and obviously hasn’t listened to is when we‘ve discussed it over the years.

In all other ways he is a kind and caring boy who is doing excellent at school and has lots of friends. What should I do now??

Is there any chance your son could have autism or sensory issues? I was just wondering as you were talking about him being obsessed with hugging. I have a 9 year old who has autism and although he doesn't do anything sexual I still have to watch him like a hawk to stop him hugging strangers and he doesn't understand that it's not appropriate to stroke someone's beard.

I think you need to reframe this op.
Your son needs help, and by getting intervention now you could save a great deal of heart ache in the future.

Do not listen to the posts minimising. Repeated incidents are extremely concerning, at this age especially.

Lots of support, professional intervention and monitoring is going to be required. Your dd needs counselling. So sorry this happened to you. How heartbreaking.

Does he have access to a phone or the Internet?
He (and his friend) may have seen adult material.

When I was a kid, my pals found mags & videos.
My friend’s uncle. I wish I’d never seen them, now.

We were quite young, and thought “it” was funny, there was a bit of “doctors & nurses” afterwards. Is it possible?

Your poor DD. You’ve got to imagine how YOU would feel if someone pulled down your trousers and underwear and touched your vulva because you were annoying them. It’s not normal. It doesn’t even make sense. Whatever you do, do not let them be unsupervised together.

I almost cried reading this. It's so awful. Your son needs help, but surely he must know that's completely wrong. Please protect your daughter.

@Tazzietoes you’ve talked about certain body areas being private, but I think you need to talk to both children about what consent is, seriously, never to young to understand consent, your son seems to not understand boundaries or consent, which has resulted in an awful situation, and goodness knows what could happen in the future without a strong understanding of consent. I would go to the school safeguarding team and potentially social services for guidance and support

He’s 7 FFS. He needs help to manage his behaviours and to learn appropriate boundaries.

There is a pattern to this and it is getting worst!
You do need some help to deal with it. I would listen to the suggestions you had above.
I would certainly watch him, at all times, never leave him anywhere close to your DD.
Are you in 100% of control on what he watches? Does he have a phone or access to the TV? That I would remove any flipping devices in the house asap.
They are much savvier than us regarding technology and he may have watched something not age appropriate.
Also, no way he was trying to get rid of his sister, he was aiming to do what he did. Both of them. They are lying. I would keep him away from this friend till all is clear. And let the parent's know. Also school.

This is a really good resource for understanding sexual behaviour in children
and what is normal.

https://proceduresonline.com/trixcms2/media/14391/brook_traffic_light_tool.pdf

Some level of exploration is normal, but there seems to be a few instances.
Have a look at this and could you speak to the safeguarding lead at school for additionL
advice or call the NSPCC.

I would definitely go over boundaries with both children. There are some great books on Amazon you can buy that are age appropriate. Explain to
your daughter that you were not cross with her but that when adults are worried/upset they sometimes can shout, but be clear she hasn’t done anything wrong.

Most likely, your son has a bit of a fixation with bums and genitals because they’re ‘rude’ a bit like harping on about farts and poo.

I agree. He sounds like a kid with an obsession with “rude” things, a curiosity about bodies and a lack of impulse control. Not necessarily a child with “serious issues” who has been sexually abused and/or at the risk of becoming a sexual abuser.

He needs strong boundaries, not a safeguarding referral or private doctors.

Hi OP, no specific experience with this but wanted to recommend “That parenting group with cath can hakanson” On Facebook. Full of brilliant information and guidance and you can post this anonymously as well

I was the DD who's parents brushed it off and under the carpet when I was touched. In my case it was an adult who touched me, and while he was vulnerable due to a physical disability, he was all there cognitively and in any case, the effect on me was the same regardless of intent/lack of intent by the perpetrator. How it was [badly] handled was more damaging to me than the incident itself.

So don't brush it off with DD, or DS either. Get proper advice from SS or NSPCC, for both children as soon as you can.

I would be in the immediate term considering sleeping arrangements, not leaving your dd alone at night. Bathing and dressing full supervision and toileting obviously all places dd is vulnerable.

He doesn't though. Touching your little sister's vulva to 'punish' her - with your friend also doing this to her - is not 'a bit rude like harping on about farts and poo.' The latter is normal behaviour, the former absolutely isn't.

Your son is old enough to know this is very wrong, regardless of who had the idea. Don't make light of it or minimise it, I'd call social services and ask for help. Your daughter needs protecting, and the thought of what you described them doing is awful, she must have been terrified. Your son clearly also needs help. Let social services know the name of the other boy too, and keep him well away for your kids. You've had an awful shock and it's a terrible situation, I really hope you and your kids are ok

Comments like this won't help , she's asking for advice -she clearly is 'very worried'.

What are you going to do to help your daughter? She's been assaulted by two boys. Please make sure you help her to understand and deal with this.

I'm sorry if you've already done this but I know from experience girls like your daughter and know the damage this can cause.

No one from SS will cause a drama, they are very aware of age appropriateness. What will cause a drama is if this little girl goes into school or nursery and tells the staff what has happened without her parents having done anything to properly safeguard her. And by properly safeguard I don't mean they've bollocked her brother and his little friend and probably left them confused and distressed.
The proper course of action here is to inform SS/MASH. The little boy could be the victim of abuse himself, they will properly and gently investigate.

Yes I agree with a PP that if you are controlling access to the internet then you need to look at your son's friends and school. Get some support from social services because you will find your son swiftly isolated if anyone else finds out. But I would imagine there is a boy in school with access to porn and a big group of small boys listening.

Your poor daughter. Keep them separate; and punish your son.

@Tazzietoes you mention the earlier incident was innocent, but it is not normal to keep showing another child their willy and trying to hug them to the point the other dc needs to retaliate to get your dc to stop. I would seek outside professional help here. As a pp mentions perhaps something happened to your ds to bring on this behaviour? A professional can help determine this or at the very least help guide on ways to nip this behaviour in the bud. It is alarming the other dc's mum mention her other son did this before as well?!

The other boy may be a bad influence but your sons behaviour is far from typical. Never leave them unsupervised and I'd honestly be worried about whether he's done this before to his sister. Please don't excuse this as normal curiosity.

It’s the number of times you’ve said to him not to touch people, what’s in your pants is private and so on and he seems to not learn from it, that’s what I find concerning.
I think you need some professional advice OP. If this was the first time I’d y, very firm words with him and then speak to him a couple of days later, getting him to reiterate the rules to me. But this isn’t the first time you’ve had concerns.

OP I think Resilience's post is very well written and thought out, and has good advice.

He has sexually assaulted his sister. It is not an isolated incident of sexually inappropriate behaviour. It needs checked out.

But showing boys your age your pants to give you a sweet (I am therefore assuming that they wanted to see your pants / thought that was good) isn´t comparable to this. Especially if you were about the same age.

OP´s son however assaulted his little sister with his friend! That is horrifying.

I strongly believe that OP needs professional help. Her son has repeatedly shown completely inappropriate, sexualised behaviour. And that is only the behaviour that she picked up on / was reported. Who knows what else has been going on!

I would be very concerned for OP´s son. And I would be very worried that he himself has been the victimised.

OP´s DD needs to be supported as well. And she can´t be left alone with her DB.

And as PP said: The other boys parents NEED to be informed as well.