DS touched DD, WTF do I do??

[Tazzietoes]

Sorry if this is long.

DS is 7, DD was 4 at the end of August. Today DS had a friend over, who is 8 and in the year above.

They went to play outside in the garden together. DD was being a bit of an annoying little sister and it gave me memories of when I used to follow my sister and her friends around. I wasn’t watching them the whole time, but had the door open to listen and checked every few minutes to make sure they weren’t doing anything they shouldn’t.

I was making them a snack when I heard DD crying. I looked out and she was standing with her jeans and pants around her knees and both boys kneeling next to her. I hate to say it but I exploded, asked what on earth they thought they were doing and to get inside straight away. I sent DS straight ip to his room so I could calm down. I told DD I wasn’t shouting at her, she wasn’t in trouble. I asked what happened and she said that both boys touched her. I asked DS‘s friend what had happened, he said DS pulled down DD trousers and touched her. He said the whole time to stop but DS didn’t.

I went up to DS and asked him what happened. He said DD was annoying them and they wanted her to go away. He admitted touching her and said his friend did too. I repeated that what is inside pants is private and I was very shocked by his behaviour. He was almost crying which he never does, so I think he knows how serious it is.

So WTF do I do now?? DS has always had pretty poor boundaries no matter how much I‘ve tried to teach him. He always gets right in everyone’s face to the point that they push him away. I‘ve always told him that people don’t like it and he needs to back off. But it’s like talking to a brick wall.

He‘s at the age of everything being about willies and bums and poo. But he takes it too far, he keeps pulling down his trousers randomly and laughing his head off.

When he was nearly 6 there was a whole drama at school- he said an older boy (10) had touched his willy at break time. Lots of sleepless nights later, it turns out he was annoying the boy, who hit DS in between his legs. The boy said DS had been showing his willy and always trying to hug him. After this incident, we had strong words with DS about body privacy.

Just a few weeks ago he ran up behind me and pinched me where my pubic hair is. Once again, I sternly told him that what is in pants is private.

I don’t know what to do. I’m worried that DS is going to turn out to be a bad person. He just finds it all hilarious. I know the curiosity is normal but this seems like more than that. He has zero respect for other people’s bodies and obviously hasn’t listened to is when we‘ve discussed it over the years.

In all other ways he is a kind and caring boy who is doing excellent at school and has lots of friends. What should I do now??

My DD is 5 and regularly tugs her brother's willies in the shower, which she knows she shouldn't do, which is probably why she does it.

I can't believe you're acting so apparently blase about this. Bloody hell. She shouldn't be showering with him when she does that. Shocking stuff on here sometimes!

No he didn't. People are saying he did because he is being tried by MumsNet as an adult. The end result is probably making an over reacting OP hysterical, so well done everyone, great job.

What most people have made no allowance for here is whether the act was motivated by developmentally appropriate curiosity. That doesn't mean what the DS did was right but people associating it with a sexual act, with or without intent, are ignoring that children can do things like this with no sexual motivation because they don't know the appropriate boundaries. That means when it happens you don't rush off to a psychiatrist, you set those boundaries.

You should not allow this. Tbe second time should have been tbe last. Why is she showering with them if she "regularly " assaults them?

What most people have made no allowance for here is whether the act was motivated by developmentally appropriate curiosity.

@FSTraining No. He did it because he was annoyed with her. That's what he said. That's not normal curiosity, plus there have been other incidents.

Nonsense. That is for mild irritations. Have you set this up like a mild irritation,or are you sending the clear signal that this is absolutely intolerable and must never happen, with associated consequences and not allowing it to happen again by separation?

Because it sounds like you did the first, when the second is the only appropriate response to sexual assault.

It was done to punish. That is not developmentally appropriate curiosity. There was an intent to shame and humiliate. That is not about boundaries, it is warped thinking.

@Switcher your attitude and response doesn't really fit in with all the PANTS rules kids are taught now. You're basically saying its ok to touch someone it if I want to be silly and not listen to mum...

Oh I see. You were there were you?

Oh, of course, from all the posts here you are an expert and an eye witness at the same time. My mistake, carry on.

@FSTraining

I went up to DS and asked him what happened. He said DD was annoying them and they wanted her to go away

It's right there in the OP.

7 year olds know not to look or touch other people's privates. OP said her son has been taught about boundaries but he clearly doesn't care.

OP said her son admitted to SA his sister because she annoyed him. He wanted to humiliate her. I'm concerned the son has been SA or accessed porn. Both may have happened at a friend's house.

He has sexually assaulted his sister.

He is both an 8 year old boy that doesn't understand boundaries and needs support and help in this area who has also sexually assaulted his sister, who will very likely remember this incident as a humiliating sexual assault by her brother and his friend as an adult unfortunately.

Him sexually assaulting his sister doesn't make him a bad kid that doesn't need support. It's not one of the other. It's important he gets support and the impact on his sister by the seriousness of the incident isn't minimised.

Maybe at the house of the friend who was with him? It sounds like he comes from a more permissive household and if he's got older brothers, he may well have accessed porn. There were kids in my son's class at primary school who'd seen porn because of neglectful parents who didn't bother about any kind of boundaries including on devices/older siblings.

People need to realise that we name the incident from the perspective of the victim.
Just because the perpetrator thinks or says they were ''messing about'' it doesn't mean it must get treated as ''messing about''.

What is 'messing about' or 'being curious' from the perpetrator's point of view could be theft, assault or rape from the victim's point of view. We call it what it is, and we treat the victim with the appropriate support to suit what happened to her from her point of view.

From this girl's point of view she was sexually assaulted.

It doesn't matter what the intent of the son was when it comes to how to go forward with support for the DD.

@Zooeyzo I didn't elaborate particularly on steps I've taken and you and others have decided that means I've done nothing. If it reassured you yes she's now stopped doing this as she is immediately removed when she does it. The hysteria seems a bit much though, but whatever, everyone on this thread seems to think 5=15.

Your blasé tone on posts isn't really appropriate on a serious thread where other people have said they were touched/abused by siblings.

Above is @Switcher

@Tazzietoes this thread is shocking, you need to seek advice and support from professionals.
you must contact the other child’s parents immediately.
this is a safeguarding risk and as the adult, you must deal appropriately.
your son needs help. Your daughter needs support and the friend needs his parents input and help.

stop posting and deal with this immediately.
irrespective of your sons age, he acted inappropriately and needs to be helped.

your daughter needs to understand that her brothers actions were not ok. She needs to be taught consent and the underwear rule. NSPCC has excellent information

the friends parents need to be made aware and the child also needs help.

PLEASE sort this

You insist on framing incidents from the POV of the person (child, in this case) doing the harmful action. "5 isn't 15", well, no, but a victim of unwanted touching doesn't go "oh the person who did this to me isn't an adult" and then instantly not have any trauma or distress from the incident. THAT'S what matters, and what you keep dismissing with your replies.

This. So much this

I have been wracked with guilt for decades. He was a child maybe it was normal. He was a child maybe I'm wrong.

I was a child, I didn't know I could say no. I was a child, I didn't want to be tied to the unpleasantness.

As an adult I know it was wrong but tore myself to shreds trying to figure out if he knew it was wrong too.

I have had to separate him and myself. I was abused as a child by child but I have had to put a lid on the can of worms of what I should call him. I hate hearing his name or about his life.

If I was to go back in time to the day after I would want someone to ask me how I felt. I would want to know what it was he thought he was doing and that he would know why it was wrong. I would want to know that my self worth wasn't going to be tied to this moment. The kids being kids narrative loses these questions. No one is suggesting that this kids should be punished like an adult but it's a big thing and it needs care and a delicate touch and is definitely something that mum and dad shouldn't feel obligated to deal with alone. They need support to help support their daughter and son through something that shouldn't have happened and something which can have life long implications if not handled with care

From your own post she has stopped doing this as she is immediately removed when she does this. Wow. Maybe read that back to yourself. Or don't. There's no way it's real. I find it hard to believe any parent would fail their children so terribly.

This so much this. I am so sorry this happened to you superscientist. I think your pov is really good for OP to navigate this horrible time. ❤️ Sending you a hug

"Doesn't care" is an assumption on your part that you shouldn't be making so flippantly. It's very possible that doesn't understand or doesn't empathise is more appropriate, tbh the more I think about it the more it's possible ds has asd. He knows there is a boundary but doesn't fully understand the reason why or the emotional impact of pushing that boundary, therefore by pushing it, he gets a reaction which is interesting and entertaining so he repeats trying to process why this reaction is happening. It could also be that he's been the victim of something inappropriate and is processing through play like so many, many children who've experienced sa.

This child needs a proper assessment and support, not trial by a group of mums online as if he's an adult who should know better.

That is what the boy himself said!

Seconded