DS touched DD, WTF do I do??

[Tazzietoes]

Sorry if this is long.

DS is 7, DD was 4 at the end of August. Today DS had a friend over, who is 8 and in the year above.

They went to play outside in the garden together. DD was being a bit of an annoying little sister and it gave me memories of when I used to follow my sister and her friends around. I wasn’t watching them the whole time, but had the door open to listen and checked every few minutes to make sure they weren’t doing anything they shouldn’t.

I was making them a snack when I heard DD crying. I looked out and she was standing with her jeans and pants around her knees and both boys kneeling next to her. I hate to say it but I exploded, asked what on earth they thought they were doing and to get inside straight away. I sent DS straight ip to his room so I could calm down. I told DD I wasn’t shouting at her, she wasn’t in trouble. I asked what happened and she said that both boys touched her. I asked DS‘s friend what had happened, he said DS pulled down DD trousers and touched her. He said the whole time to stop but DS didn’t.

I went up to DS and asked him what happened. He said DD was annoying them and they wanted her to go away. He admitted touching her and said his friend did too. I repeated that what is inside pants is private and I was very shocked by his behaviour. He was almost crying which he never does, so I think he knows how serious it is.

So WTF do I do now?? DS has always had pretty poor boundaries no matter how much I‘ve tried to teach him. He always gets right in everyone’s face to the point that they push him away. I‘ve always told him that people don’t like it and he needs to back off. But it’s like talking to a brick wall.

He‘s at the age of everything being about willies and bums and poo. But he takes it too far, he keeps pulling down his trousers randomly and laughing his head off.

When he was nearly 6 there was a whole drama at school- he said an older boy (10) had touched his willy at break time. Lots of sleepless nights later, it turns out he was annoying the boy, who hit DS in between his legs. The boy said DS had been showing his willy and always trying to hug him. After this incident, we had strong words with DS about body privacy.

Just a few weeks ago he ran up behind me and pinched me where my pubic hair is. Once again, I sternly told him that what is in pants is private.

I don’t know what to do. I’m worried that DS is going to turn out to be a bad person. He just finds it all hilarious. I know the curiosity is normal but this seems like more than that. He has zero respect for other people’s bodies and obviously hasn’t listened to is when we‘ve discussed it over the years.

In all other ways he is a kind and caring boy who is doing excellent at school and has lots of friends. What should I do now??

I would be worried he has been abused himself and/or had exposure to inappropriate content.

however most likely he does it to get a reaction/push boundaries...

You need to be proactive. The parents of the other child are probably wondering whether to report to the school right now too.

The different incidents build a worrying picture and you need to protect your daughter while being to the root of your son's behaviour.

Sadly, there is a chance he has been abused/exposed to adult content. These things rarely occur in a vacuum.

My first thought is has he done this before? I don’t know if it would be wise to ask your daughter or leave it alone. Agree that he cannot be left unsupervised with her. I assume he doesn’t have unfettered access to any screens?

The brook traffic light system is good for situations like this.
https://www.birmingham.gov.uk/download/downloads/id/8691/responding_to_hsb_-_traffic_lights_ages_5_to_9.pdf

If it’s in the green it’s classed as normal behaviour and guidance is needed, if amber you need to talk to a teacher or nspcc and if red speak with children’s social care for support.

Have you sat him down and calmly asked him WHY he is doing these things? How he feels whilst doing them?

It's one thing to be appalled at his behaviour, to tell him off, to be worried he might do it again... but it doesn't look like you've made any attempt to understand his motivations.

It could be curiosity, attention-seeking, exerting power, reenactment of something he's seen... I think you need to get to the root of that before you can properly tackle it.

There are various reasons why he might be acting like this, ranging from nothing to seriously worry about (curiosity about sex/women's bodies) to more concerning scenarios. But he must know that he's transgressed serious boundaries in doing this - to you as well as your daughter. I think you need to talk to NSPCC and child psychologists/psychiatrists and, if it was me, I would be punishing for transgressing those boundaries. This isn't a time when a stern voice and a 'don't do it again' is really enough. There comes a point where you've explained enough times about bodily privacy - which he's repeatedly ignored - that he needs to realise there are consquences for ignoring boundaries. And don't leave him unsupervised with his sister.

I think people are being very naïve if they can't see a sexual element in this. He pulled his little sister's clothes down and touched her while she struggled. If the other boy was kneeling down rather than standing up trying to pull your son away, I don't think I'd readily believe his claims about being an innocent bystander. My mother was a nanny and she saw a few hair raising things that she was very matter of fact about but these were much younger children who genuinely didn't have a sexual element in very inappropriate play which they both participated in. She just told them that this wasn't appropriate behaviour and they should stop it and not do it again.

He's too old for this and in all honesty I'd be wondering where he got the idea to expose someone's genitals and touch them as a punishment for being annoying from.

It sounds like he has social issues which need addressing at the very least, I'd be proactive in getting him the support he needs so you can identify any issues which may be causing this and be proactive in supporting him to change his behaviour

Most likely, your son has a bit of a fixation with bums and genitals because they’re ‘rude’ a bit like harping on about farts and poo. It unlikely that it’s sexual in that he’s too young really to have those feelings and I had a friend go through something incredibly similar with same age and sex siblings. The police were involved due to there being suspicions of abuse. There weren’t and the police lady gave them a bit of a lecture and some leaflets and that was that.
what you need to do is talk to him properly about this , explain how inappropriate it is and that if he were a few years older he could be in very serious trouble. Ask him gently but firmly if anyone’s been touching him (obviously report if they have but I reckon it’ll just be his fixation with rude bits) and warn him very sternly that any more of this behaviour will mean you have to get social services and police involved so it stops now.
as for DD you need to tell her she’s done nothing wrong, that the boys were being stupid and that you’ve really told him off. Tell her she’s allowed to scream and kick him if he does that again. But then try to move on, do some baking or something so she doesn’t dwell on it too much.

I would raise this with a social worker. There seems to have been a few incidents of indecent touching despite your previous approach of sternly telling him off and reiterating what is in the pants is private. He may need assessments or extra support/psychology assessment as others have suggested and this is okay you need to intervene to support him now and also be very careful with leaving him alone with dd unsupervised. I'm sorry your going through this OP but you need to involve other agencies i feel to get extra support. He seems overally fascinated, knows its wrong as has been warned before but keeps repeating the behaviour.

I’d be more worried (and then not massively) about the ‘bullying his sister’ aspect than anything sexual - he’s 7 so Without minimising anything I would suggest you keep an eye on him /them and ignore some of the more sensational/tabloid responses ! Harsh punishments? Mentioning the Jamie Bulger case?! (They were 10 /nearly 11 btw and that is a big difference and also quite an extreme case to reference!) When my 2 teenage boys were young they were extremely close (snuggling/cuddling etc) and we had social workers/family support workers at the time (they’re adopted before anyone accuses us of anything nefarious) and they just said it’s normal, keep an eye on it and just remind them about privacy etc

@Gingercreams I'm not sure you can say her son deliberately lied about the 10 year old. It could just be a limited vocabulary. The boy hit the OPs son in his private parts, the OPs son explained that as touching - at 7 he's hardly likely to know the different connotations.

I am sorry your family are going through this. You need professional help, he needs watching 24/7 it is not within the realm of "typical" behaviour at that age - and the specific way he kept going while she said no- and was doing it to punish her - extremely worrying.

Honestly, I would be keeping her with me day and night until I had professionals review and advise. Your daughter will also need support.

There was some research recently that suggested 10% of under 9s have viewed pornographyand 25% of year 6 kids had viewed it.
Are you sure that your son's internet settings are water tight and he's not watching YouTubers who joke about porn and sex?
Most importantly, are you sure that your son hasn't been abused and is recreating that?
Best case scenario is that he has impulse control issues so needs to be separated from his sister at all times.

Why are people excusing this. The dd was crying and knows this was horribly wrong!! ffS she was assaulted. There is very clearly something wrong with this boy- he has a pattern of being very inappropriately sexual. I don't even know how you controlled yourself walking into that situation. I would keep him far away from your dd until you get him looked at.

Sorry to hear about your problems. I don't wish to add to your worries, but he sounds just like my friend's son who has autism spectrum disorder. He will go around deliberately touching people in inappropriate areas and thinks it hilarious when you get cross. He is 8, I think, but routinely gets naked when I visit, and has no sense of modesty. He also does this at school too, and has been in trouble recently for sitting in class with his hands down his pants. If he is out in public he will loudly blurt out rude or nasty comments about people around him. If you tell him off in the wrong manner, perhaps a little harsh for example, he will have a complete meltdown. So as I say, he sounds very similar in sime ways, so thought I would share my experience in case it helps. GL

Given what you've said not just about this incident but also about what he said about the other boy, his keenness to drop his trousers all the time and the fact that he has also touched you inappropriately, I definitely think you need to take this further and seek some kind of child psychiatric assessment for your son.

Like you say - curiosity is normal and pretty much all kids absolutely go through a willy-bum-boobs phase. If you'd said something like 'I caught DS and his friend showing each other their willies' or 'DS tried to get his sister to show him her bum' or something then I think that would be in the realms of normal child behaviour. But I think the level of obsession your son seems to have for touching other people's private parts and for exposing himself to other people - even after repeatedly being told that this is very serious and unacceptable behaviour towards other people - goes beyond the standard curiosity.

I'm sure your son is absolutely not a bad person. He's seven years old and I strongly doubt he understands why he even does these things, but it does clearly need to be addressed professionally for his own sake as well as the sake of others around him. If he had other issues around impulse control or inability to judge what's appropriate, then I'd wonder if there was neurodivergence at play here, but I assume you have no concerns about any other, non-sexual, behaviours. As others have said, overly sexual behaviour from young children can sometimes be an indication that they've witnessed or experienced some form of abuse themselves. I'm sure that's highly unlikely and of course, I sincerely hope that isn't a factor, but I think that (again, for his own sake) some investigation into his behaviour is required to find out what's at the root of it.

From your post, I think you instinctively know, as his mum, that he's exceeded the norms of 'curiosity' and I think you should trust that instinct to safeguard not just his sister and other children, but also him.

He was clever enough not to mention that he'd been waving his penis about and trying to hug the other boy and I think a six year old knows enough words to differentiate between touching and kicking. I think the 10 year was trying to get him to back off and put his penis away.

MN is not going to be helpful, as you can tell from some of the ridiculous replies. OP I would suggest hiding this thread and getting professional advice from someone with training in child protection - safeguarding lead at school sounds like a good place to start.

It is probably worth talking to the other boy's parents and making them aware of the incident.

It unlikely that it’s sexual in that he’s too young really to have those feelings

I'm afraid that's simply not true. Children have sexual feelings from a very young age, which is normal, but they usually understand very early on that this is something to keep private. The fact that the OP's DS is apparently unable to understand those boundaries is the concern here, not the fact that he might have sexual feelings.

Where is this boy’s father? This is exactly the sort of thing that should be dealt with by a man not simply left to Mum.

It’s probably just a phase he will grow out of but unfortunately it still means you have to be vigilant. Make sure your little girl always knows to come and tell you if she is worried about anything her brother is doing.

A PP said "just make light of it with your DD". Absolutely do NOT do this. Of course, speak to her about it in a gentle and appropriate way and don't make her feel overwhelmed with seriousness, but to help her process this, she needs to have her feelings reflected back, in terms of you taking it seriously and validating how upset and confused she must feel. If you "make light of it" she will be left alone with the big feelings of shock, etc., and wonder why people don't seem to care, and that her upset feelings don't match those of the people around her and her caregivers.

Have you spoken to the other boy's parents? Make sure you do before they think that you stayed silent because there's a chance that your son abused theirs.

Absolutely DO NOT make light of it to your DD

Most of the posts here are a complete overreaction. The DS is 8 for goodness sake. My kids were all obsessed with body parts and being rude at the same age. They're not interested in each other sexually, they just think it's hilarious where poo and wee come from. Exploding at them is more than enough to stop them doing it again.

Suggesting an 8 year old is doing it for sexual reasons and suggesting he needs a psychiatric assessment is utterly ridiculous in my opinion. If he was 11, maybe, but not 8.