DS touched DD, WTF do I do??

[Tazzietoes]

Sorry if this is long.

DS is 7, DD was 4 at the end of August. Today DS had a friend over, who is 8 and in the year above.

They went to play outside in the garden together. DD was being a bit of an annoying little sister and it gave me memories of when I used to follow my sister and her friends around. I wasn’t watching them the whole time, but had the door open to listen and checked every few minutes to make sure they weren’t doing anything they shouldn’t.

I was making them a snack when I heard DD crying. I looked out and she was standing with her jeans and pants around her knees and both boys kneeling next to her. I hate to say it but I exploded, asked what on earth they thought they were doing and to get inside straight away. I sent DS straight ip to his room so I could calm down. I told DD I wasn’t shouting at her, she wasn’t in trouble. I asked what happened and she said that both boys touched her. I asked DS‘s friend what had happened, he said DS pulled down DD trousers and touched her. He said the whole time to stop but DS didn’t.

I went up to DS and asked him what happened. He said DD was annoying them and they wanted her to go away. He admitted touching her and said his friend did too. I repeated that what is inside pants is private and I was very shocked by his behaviour. He was almost crying which he never does, so I think he knows how serious it is.

So WTF do I do now?? DS has always had pretty poor boundaries no matter how much I‘ve tried to teach him. He always gets right in everyone’s face to the point that they push him away. I‘ve always told him that people don’t like it and he needs to back off. But it’s like talking to a brick wall.

He‘s at the age of everything being about willies and bums and poo. But he takes it too far, he keeps pulling down his trousers randomly and laughing his head off.

When he was nearly 6 there was a whole drama at school- he said an older boy (10) had touched his willy at break time. Lots of sleepless nights later, it turns out he was annoying the boy, who hit DS in between his legs. The boy said DS had been showing his willy and always trying to hug him. After this incident, we had strong words with DS about body privacy.

Just a few weeks ago he ran up behind me and pinched me where my pubic hair is. Once again, I sternly told him that what is in pants is private.

I don’t know what to do. I’m worried that DS is going to turn out to be a bad person. He just finds it all hilarious. I know the curiosity is normal but this seems like more than that. He has zero respect for other people’s bodies and obviously hasn’t listened to is when we‘ve discussed it over the years.

In all other ways he is a kind and caring boy who is doing excellent at school and has lots of friends. What should I do now??

I actually don't think it's a bad thing that you exploded at what he did to your dd. It sounds like you possibly reacted too mildly at him grabbing your crotch. I'd have gone ballistic.

Could just be normal childhood curiosity, but appropriate to stop and shame the behaviour.

I would think really carefully about what to do about this. It could become very nasty.

What a nightmare.

I think the pp’s advising you seek professional support are correct. His behaviour is generally worrying and unusual.

I think you should also speak to the other boys parents.

I do think this could be 'innocent' as regards boundary pushing and fascination with the differences between bodies etc. He's still very young and at the age where he's noticing and figuring out the differences between boys and girls and boundaries. It could have been curiosity rather than harmful sexual behaviour. But it's still inappropriate and tbh I'd get in touch with the safeguarding lead at his school anyway. Often this type of thing is just curiosity and not understanding why it's inappropriate fully, but it can be a sign of something else given his previous allegations and behaviours and you'd want to make sure there's nothing in his past that could have taught him to 'play' in this way. It's good for the school to be aware of so they can safeguard him and other pupils. It might mean you'll get more support in how to address it with him as well. I think how you address this is important, I would go down a more curious and educative route than punishing him because if (God forbid) something is wrong you need him to be able to feel safe to tell you. I'd try and work out why he decided to do it, why he felt it was OK, what was the conversation that happened, what was the context etc etc. I'd talk again with him about respect for bodies and the trouble he could get into if he does it again. I'd make sure your dd knows that wasn't OK, that you've spoken with him and talk about what she can do if it happens again. I do think some formal support to do an assessment with fresh eyes is important.

I also think you need to speak to the parents of the other child and the school if they attend the same.

You need to report this to social services and ask for their help before the other parents report it and they come looking for you. Work with them, they will help him and you to deal with this behaviour.
NSPCC are middle men, they have a duty to report to SS, it looks so much better if you go directly to the professionals yourself.
Your DS is still little, with the right interventions this may be able to be stopped right away. They will also advise on the best way to move forward with your DD.

Ffs where your kids also investigating and touching the private parts of younger children??

I don't think it's relevant that it's presumably not sexual in motivation. A lot of sexual assault etc is motivated by control or a desire to punish and humiliate someone, rather than sexual desire. And he's still doing the thing, whatever his motivation, which will become illegal if he keeps doing it through life.

@Tazzietoes I don't think there's anything you can do which would be going to far at this point. Try and get school to help for sure, and the GP.

He’s seven years old ffs….still a baby. Yes you need to deal with it (in a sensitive way) but everyone’s acting like he’s a monster. It would be very very damaging to call social services and make this into a huge drama.

Little boys often run around naked and yes, it can be a bit inappropriate and you wonder what will happen if they’re still doing it when they’re a teenager. But one day it just stops and they’re mortified if you remind them. Your DS has taken it a bit far but it isn’t sexual…he’s not got the necessary hormones or equipment for it to be.

It's good you exploded as what your son did was wrong. It's sexual assault.

He knows boundaries and limits at that age - but he is choosing not listen to you after having chats about private parts and we don't touch /look at other peoples and still carries on

Poor dd - reassure her you are not cross with her and that she was right to tell you and maybe ask if has happened before

You need to speak to school and safe guarding

Do not leave dd alone with ds

And speak to the other boys parents

And OP this isn’t the place to ask. There is absolutely no way that people in real life would react like these posters.

OMG. This is so wrong.
4 year old has been assaulted and you want to sweep it under a carpet. Safeguarding is everyone's responsibility. Social services are professionals and will deal with this appropriately. (Or you could just ignore and wait for it to happen again).

THIS!!!

It's not really about whether these actions of his are sexual in nature because as this PP points out, sexual assault isn't really driven by sexuality in the first place, but power, control and a desire to humiliate. OP your son needs help to learn fundamentally why he feels the inclination to do these things, and ways to cope with those feelings.

Ultimately, it doesn't matter whether OP's DS was intentionally being sexual with DD - DD has still experienced sexual assault. I'm sorry, OP, this must all be so horrible.

Not that I'm aware of but nevertheless I'm surprised at the reaction here. What's actually happened is that three children all below the age of criminal responsibility and below the age of puberty have done something which would be extremely serious if an adult had been involved. And everyone here has decided to treat the 8 year old like an adult.

What people here are expecting is that an 8 year old below the age of criminal responsibility and below the age of puberty, who has probably received no sex education at school should automatically know these boundaries. They won't and they have to be taught. Going ballistic has probably done the trick already.

OP I'm so sorry for all of you involved in this. Your mind must be in overdrive and you must be torn between needing to do the right thing by both DC. 💐

First off, your daughter. When you say 'touched' you need to be clear what that means (don't explain here in case people with the wrong motives are reading). Penetration will require a different response to a half-second touch of the mons pubis area. Your DDs welfare comes first in this scenario and if you have any concerns about her physical well-being that must take priority. I'm going to assume that you mean brief touching of the moms pubis rather than sustained touching of the actual vulval area.

From your DDs perspective you need to strike the right balance between role modelling that touching of the private area without consent is unacceptable and not inadvertently feeding any trauma from it. You may need help to navigate that. If so, make sure you seek it.

At 7 your DS will not have any sexual gratification motive, although he may well have sexual curiosity (without really knowing what that is), which is nothing in itself to be worried about.

The big question is why a pattern of sexualised behaviour has emerged which involves touching others and exposing himself/others. Either he doesn't yet understand this is wrong or something else is going on. If the former, you may need help to teach these boundaries. If you've not been successful so far and need to ramp things up, this can be difficult to do without causing feelings of shame around sex as an adult.

The other, less palatable things to think about are what he may have been exposed to himself. Has he had access to porn? What about age inappropriate TV? Can he get on the internet? Is there a possibility he's been abused by someone himself? Has he witnessed abusive behaviour towards others, such as domestic abuse?

In the scenario you describe it seems more about humiliation/control rather than any sexual motive (especially given his age). He wanted to punish your DD for being an annoying little sister and chose to do it this way rather than hurt her like many 7 year olds might have done. Most 7 year olds would be unlikely to think of it because it's an unfamiliar behaviour in that context. While quite a few young children engage in 'you show me yours' activity grow up perfectly normal, that isn't how you describe what happened. Victims of all kinds of abuse are often denied bodily autonomy, which can be as simple as one person repeatedly pinching their partner's backside when they walk past them despite being asked repeatedly not to. Is he seeing any behaviour like that from anyone? These are all things to think about.

Try not to catastrophise. None of this means he is going to grow up to be a sex offender. He is a child and one of an age that still has trouble separating reality from fantasy and right from wrong. What's happened has happened. What's more important is that you handle it well going forward for both your DCs sakes. If you need professional help to do that, don't be afraid to seek it. All the professionals will be concerned about is protecting your DC, not judging you or your DS. 💐

This, do not call social services, he is 7, but do keep an eye on him and look at all instances where he could have been assaulted himself.

There are too many replies to reply individually, but I will try to answer some of the questions.

DH is around and a good dad- calm and patient and present. Unfortunately no other male role models. DH will be home soon and will be talking with DS.

The earlier incident was a misunderstanding, he wasn’t being malicious and accusing the boy of anything. He casually mentioned that the boy touched his willy. I tried not to freak out pr put words in his mouth, so got the school involved. From gently questioning then both over the course of a few days the truth of the ‚touch‘ came out.

His friend today. I am absolutely not making excuses for DS. I know it was his idea. His friend is definitely a bad influence, him and his 5 yo brother are quite badly behaved. He keeps inviting DS over and I always say no. He seems to have calmed down a lot lately so I decided to invite him here where I can keep an eye instead of DS going there. The rest of the play date went well and he was well behaved. I told his mum when she picked him up. She was shocked. She said they‘ve had a similar situation with his younger brother but never with him.

DS watches TV, but only CBeebies. He doesn’t have access to an ipad. But obviously I habe no control of what he does or sees at friends houses. And I know some of the parents are a lot more easy going with screens than me.

I’m trying to stay calm and will try to find out why he did it.

I agree with the many posters who said in isolation it could be curiousity, but with everything else it is really worrying.

I‘ll get in touch with the school again. I’m not actually in the UK but will see if there is an NSPCC equivalent

I don't see PPs treating the 7 year old like an adult, I see them concerned and wanting him to receive help.

Also you're missing the point, which is the experience DD had. It is in some ways irrelevant if the boys were acting sexually or not, because the effect on DD was the same.

The most important thing is to protect your DD from further assaults, so don't leave the 2 of them alone together. Then contact the designated safeguarding lead at your DC's school and ask them for advice. Good luck OP, this sounds like a total nightmare.

Please do not listen to the poster who advised you to 'make light of it' to your daughter. Please don't make light of this situation, if you do and she finds herself in this situation again with your son, or anyone else, she will think it's not serious and likely won't tell you.You need to have a serious (age appropriate) talk with her about how what happened was wrong and why. Talking about body parts, basic sex education etc from a young age is extremely important in safeguarding children and statistics show that children who have access to this information from a very young age are more likely to report SA, much more so than children who haven't been given the correct terminology and basic knowledge.

OP I would be very concerned about why your son is acting in this way, in the majority of cases like this with children this age, the child is also a victim of SA. As horrible a thought as it is, is there any possibility your son has experienced SA himself? Think of anyone who ever cares for DS - father, grandparents, other family members, friends, teachers, other caregivers etc.

Hopefully that is not the case, but it certainly needs looking into.

You would benefit from speaking to MASH or your schools safeguarding lead - they will be best placed to point you in the right direction for support going forward.

Please do not sweep this under the rug in anyway, it needs addressing and sooner rather than later.

That seems odd for 7, could he have SEN or trauma that is affecting his understanding of boundaries and what is appropriate?

This - I'd talk to the school see if they have concerns and yes I probably would have had a word with the other parents but say you are aware and think it's a phase though say you would be talking to the school just in case.

I didn’t say it shouldn’t be dealt with. I said that it shouldn’t be made into a huge drama.

This little boy is seven years old. He’s not a sexual predator and he didn’t do it to humiliate and control.

I make a point on never responding to people on here but I have to respond to you because this thread has been taken over by over-dramatic third wave feminists and I can’t look on as this very young lad is accused of sexual assault. It’s absolutely appalling.

Whatever you do, do not leave DS and DD alone anywhere, at any point in time.
Watch him like a hawk.
I would tell him this as well that at this current time he cannot be trusted and again explain why and bring up the other accidents.

See about getting him a therapist, I hate to say this but even if he did have SEN this behaviour isn't right, especially as it's not a one off accident.

Yes, but help for what? Because his normal curiosity at a young age doesn't sit with their adult world view.