DS touched DD, WTF do I do??

[Tazzietoes]

Sorry if this is long.

DS is 7, DD was 4 at the end of August. Today DS had a friend over, who is 8 and in the year above.

They went to play outside in the garden together. DD was being a bit of an annoying little sister and it gave me memories of when I used to follow my sister and her friends around. I wasn’t watching them the whole time, but had the door open to listen and checked every few minutes to make sure they weren’t doing anything they shouldn’t.

I was making them a snack when I heard DD crying. I looked out and she was standing with her jeans and pants around her knees and both boys kneeling next to her. I hate to say it but I exploded, asked what on earth they thought they were doing and to get inside straight away. I sent DS straight ip to his room so I could calm down. I told DD I wasn’t shouting at her, she wasn’t in trouble. I asked what happened and she said that both boys touched her. I asked DS‘s friend what had happened, he said DS pulled down DD trousers and touched her. He said the whole time to stop but DS didn’t.

I went up to DS and asked him what happened. He said DD was annoying them and they wanted her to go away. He admitted touching her and said his friend did too. I repeated that what is inside pants is private and I was very shocked by his behaviour. He was almost crying which he never does, so I think he knows how serious it is.

So WTF do I do now?? DS has always had pretty poor boundaries no matter how much I‘ve tried to teach him. He always gets right in everyone’s face to the point that they push him away. I‘ve always told him that people don’t like it and he needs to back off. But it’s like talking to a brick wall.

He‘s at the age of everything being about willies and bums and poo. But he takes it too far, he keeps pulling down his trousers randomly and laughing his head off.

When he was nearly 6 there was a whole drama at school- he said an older boy (10) had touched his willy at break time. Lots of sleepless nights later, it turns out he was annoying the boy, who hit DS in between his legs. The boy said DS had been showing his willy and always trying to hug him. After this incident, we had strong words with DS about body privacy.

Just a few weeks ago he ran up behind me and pinched me where my pubic hair is. Once again, I sternly told him that what is in pants is private.

I don’t know what to do. I’m worried that DS is going to turn out to be a bad person. He just finds it all hilarious. I know the curiosity is normal but this seems like more than that. He has zero respect for other people’s bodies and obviously hasn’t listened to is when we‘ve discussed it over the years.

In all other ways he is a kind and caring boy who is doing excellent at school and has lots of friends. What should I do now??

For all the posters saying don't label him or he's just curious what msg does that send to the young girl? That she should allow this behaviour?

I was your dd but it was my friends brother. After decades of introspection I have found a peace with separating myself, him and the action. I feel abused, it was abusive but there is so much turmoil in my mind about using those terms for him without knowing what his thoughts were.
Your daughter has be violated and punished in derogatory manner. Without the touching angle, her private areas were exposed in order to humiliate. Deep care is needed so that she doesn't keep this connection between her physical body and humiliation and in later years her sexuality.
Your son thinks that exposing the genitals of a child as the appropriate action for them being annoying. He thinks that humiliation is the appropriate action for being annoying. That is concerning regardless of the manner in which he has chosen to humiliate.
With this in mind I would express caution in any punishments and consequences that reinforce this connection between humiliation and punishment

@Switcher do you that's normal behaviour at 5 years old? If your daughter can't keep her hands to herself then she should be showering alone.

'The Fuck?!!! Why the hell are you allowing her to do that?! God I hope you're just trolling.

How old is her brother? Should they be showering together if she insists on doing that?

I’m glad my mum bathed me and my older brothers separately. They had their own baths as well actually. I don’t really get the whole bathing children together unless they’re literal babies but that’s another story…

respect for privacy was really enforced in our household growing up so I’ve always had a keen sense of boundaries.

Anyway I’d say there is a significant difference between 5 and 7. Some five year olds come across very young almost toddler like whereas 7 year olds not so much.

He overpowered her with his friend and touched her against her will to punish or humiliate her - that sounds abusive.

unfortunately you won’t be the only one here with lived experience of abuse, many people who do agree it’s abuse have been victims too. Overriding consent in this way will always be abusive IMO even if he did it out of curiosity even moreso in this case where he did it to punish her.

OP, ignore the ones saying to play this down to your DD. This is the last thing you should do. She obviously knows it was a horrific experience and you need to validate her feelings and reinforce that her sense of bodily autonomy and make it clear she was right to speak up.

My childhood friend is 37. She was abused from ages 3-6 and is very angry and traumatised to this day because it was played down and her sibling wasn’t punished and/or treated. It has ruined her relationship with a lot of her family.

The sibling who abused her later went onto abuse the two children of family friends Who were staying with their family, when he was in his mid- late teens.

Don’t make light of this. Get help for both your kids.

Switcher that is a HUGE problem. Why on earth are you allowing her to shower with anyone if she behaves this way! This is some you need to come down like a ton of bricks

to all the posters minimising what Ds and his friend have done. It might not of been sexual in intention but unfortunately it is sexual abuse. I’m so sorry @Tazzietoes

ring social services, both will neee councilling and support

ds for his previous trauma and Dd for her recents. I don’t know what to suggest. Both dc will need support. ds needs to know what he has done whatever his intentions were was so so wrong. Can he stay with a close understanding relative?

remember : he can change with correct re-direction and support.

chiefly focus on your Dd. What a big nightmare for her. What a nightmare for you.

takw this seriously, dd trauma might come in waves as she grows and develops. Remember she can have a happy fulfilling good life but action needs to happen now.

also you are a good mum for taking this seriously.

You need to stop them showering together then. You’re not protecting him or putting him first are you then in that situation

we teach stop means stop. Whether they’re playing with bricks. Or having dinner and the other is annoying the other

Yes, obviously. Only the more you tell a kid that age off the more they tend to do whatever they think annoys you if they're in that mood, so making a big deal of it isn't going to make her stop.

To me, OP's son, as described here, falls into the last two examples in the Red category :(

You need to make a big deal. It's non negotiable. You are the parent. This is blurred lines of consent that you're creating.

How dare you? Some of us are fucking widowed parents! Reported

Those of you saying he's too young to be a risk, well in a school fairly local to us, there was a case where a Year 2 boy sexually assaulted a girl in Reception in the girl's toilets. He actually injured the poor little girl. I only know that last detail because it became local news. It also became the cause of the end for that particular school, as obviously the boy's identity was never revealed so unsurprisingly, nearly every parent removed their child from the school. This of course, meant they were forced to close.
Anyway, it very sadly goes to prove that children can potentially be a risk even at a very young age.

@RainbowZebraWarrior err ok, if you say so!

Don't you mean genuinely worrying?

@FSTraining Nonsense. Please see my post above.

He sexually abused his 4yr old sister.....

So.. I assume you’ve stopped showering them together while you work on her behaviour?

@Switcher Why the actual FUCKETY FUCK are they showering together?!?! Jesus Christ on a bike..........😦

Make it as huge of a deal as the situation is which is huge. Her being a girl does not mean oh she's just silly and annoying him. My God

It's not just me saying so, though.

@Switcher You are the parent. Stop allowing her to behave that way to your other children, that is absolutely awful

Link please.