DS touched DD, WTF do I do??

[Tazzietoes]

Sorry if this is long.

DS is 7, DD was 4 at the end of August. Today DS had a friend over, who is 8 and in the year above.

They went to play outside in the garden together. DD was being a bit of an annoying little sister and it gave me memories of when I used to follow my sister and her friends around. I wasn’t watching them the whole time, but had the door open to listen and checked every few minutes to make sure they weren’t doing anything they shouldn’t.

I was making them a snack when I heard DD crying. I looked out and she was standing with her jeans and pants around her knees and both boys kneeling next to her. I hate to say it but I exploded, asked what on earth they thought they were doing and to get inside straight away. I sent DS straight ip to his room so I could calm down. I told DD I wasn’t shouting at her, she wasn’t in trouble. I asked what happened and she said that both boys touched her. I asked DS‘s friend what had happened, he said DS pulled down DD trousers and touched her. He said the whole time to stop but DS didn’t.

I went up to DS and asked him what happened. He said DD was annoying them and they wanted her to go away. He admitted touching her and said his friend did too. I repeated that what is inside pants is private and I was very shocked by his behaviour. He was almost crying which he never does, so I think he knows how serious it is.

So WTF do I do now?? DS has always had pretty poor boundaries no matter how much I‘ve tried to teach him. He always gets right in everyone’s face to the point that they push him away. I‘ve always told him that people don’t like it and he needs to back off. But it’s like talking to a brick wall.

He‘s at the age of everything being about willies and bums and poo. But he takes it too far, he keeps pulling down his trousers randomly and laughing his head off.

When he was nearly 6 there was a whole drama at school- he said an older boy (10) had touched his willy at break time. Lots of sleepless nights later, it turns out he was annoying the boy, who hit DS in between his legs. The boy said DS had been showing his willy and always trying to hug him. After this incident, we had strong words with DS about body privacy.

Just a few weeks ago he ran up behind me and pinched me where my pubic hair is. Once again, I sternly told him that what is in pants is private.

I don’t know what to do. I’m worried that DS is going to turn out to be a bad person. He just finds it all hilarious. I know the curiosity is normal but this seems like more than that. He has zero respect for other people’s bodies and obviously hasn’t listened to is when we‘ve discussed it over the years.

In all other ways he is a kind and caring boy who is doing excellent at school and has lots of friends. What should I do now??

Oh OP.

Horrible for you. First practical thing: the children aren't left alone together at all. If you need to leave the room, Dd comes with you. Second thing, this isn't a one off, it's part of a pattern of behaviour, and your Ds has had repeated explanation and boundaries from you about this, and you say its not going in, or making any difference. This would suggest there are underlying issues for him, whether it's about social comprehension or impulse control, and this needs exploring. Third thing: he is very likely to break the boundaries of another child sooner or later, and I would suggest getting professional help and advice now, because it will happen inevitably at some point. It will protect everyone better, including him, if it's known he currently has this issue and that everyone manages it. Everyone needs clear advice on prevention and on giving him a very clear, consistent response to inappropriate behaviours. Fourth thing: school support, make sure they risk assess and supervise, which again protects everyone including him. Fifth thing; the right support for dd.

I had a friend go through this with two of her kids, it needed a couple of years careful management.

I'd see a counsellor or psychologist. Start with GP or school and get referral. I'd also make sure your daughter can speak to someone and gets to process her experience. So sorry this has happened.

I hope you are okay op. Just checking you are doing okay? This is a horrendous and frightening time for all of you.

Remain the adult here. Calm, together and holding the situation.

Please take this seriously and make sure your son never does this again.
I was sexually abused by my older brother, he was probably slightly older than your son when it started but I can’t be sure, I was a little older than your DD, but only slightly. My mother found out ( after 2,3, 4 years, I don’t know) when he tried to involve another brother and sister. My mother blamed me. She’d never noticed because she constantly left us alone and told him he was in charge of me.
The abuse and the aftermath have caused huge damage to my life, my well-being, my MH, my relationships.
Please look after your daughter, make sure she s ok, and reassured, don’t leave your son alone with her and maybe ask for advice from NSPCC on how to handle it with him.

How do you know he did not do it to humiliate and control?

He hasn't sexually assaulted his sister. He would have sexually assaulted her if he was at least 10 and had intent. He is 8 and clearly had neither.

What has happened is that an 8 year old who doesn't understand boundaries has done something he should not have done and his parents need to teach him the appropriate boundaries.

That's nonsense - and completely minimises the impact on the victim. The girl has been sexually assaulted. It has nothing to do with 'intent' on the part of the perpetrator.

Parents don't know what to ask. They cannot measure safeguarding risks. They cannot protect the boy or his sister without proper information.

You can call it nonsense after you go to the CPS website and read what a sexual assault is. Not before.

Having reread your post I am
Now wondering about the older boys involvement.

Whilst it's not completely unusual, why is the boy in the year above interested in your son who with all due respect behaves quite immaturely?

If the old boy has something untoward going on, could he have gravitated towards your son and the pair of them have encouraged each other or even the bigger boy daring him or vice versa or some kind of manipulation between them with one dominating the other?

The bigger boy never ran and got you and would have known it was wrong to pull his friends sisters pants down etc.

Why don't you highlight the bit that says that someone sticking their finger into another person's genitals without their consent isn't a sexual assault?

DS needs to be kept away from DD, keeping him with you and allowing her to continue relatively normally.

This must not be minimised to either of them (he knew what he was doing was cruel and did it out of desire to gain control over her) and needs to be reported to professionals for support.

Any touching of genitals with intent is a sexual assault. It may not be able to be prosecuted, as it ischild on child assault, but her dd has been sexually assaulted.

People minimising this is unreal. He touched her sexually against her will - because she was annoying. That's in his own words. It's not on to minimise that because he's younger than ten years old.

But his sister has been sexually assaulted whether you believe there was intent or not.

Really sorry op but one thing you need to consider is whether DS has been touched inappropriately at some point so it has been normalised for him.

He's 7! He probably had no idea about anything sexual yet.

Call nspc. Helpline speak to a trained advisor

Completely agree.

Haven’t read the whole thread so this may have been mentioned - the Brook Traffic light tool can be useful
https://proceduresonline.com/trixcms2/media/14391/brook_traffic_light_tool.pdf
It says what is standard behaviour at different ages

I'm sorry I haven't RTFT or have any experience in this but with regards to helping your daughter understand could you show her the NSPCC pantosaurus video. It's on YouTube and a really gentle introduction to the basics.

I'm sorry you're dealing with this and I hope you get support. It must be a very scary time (hopefully one that turns into nothing).

@AlwaysPrettyOnTheInside 🫣 I went to say the same upon reading that but didn't, scrolled down and you've said it!

It's not that unusual for kids at right around that age to be very curious about that kind of thing. It used to be the prime age for kids "playing doctor".

The usual thing is to try and nip it in the bud, which you have, It seems like your son is finding the whole forbidden aspect makes it more appealing and more hilarious. Which is a thing, some kids (and even some adults) are like that. Some are very attracted to anything that seems forbidden and kind of scatalogical.

I agree with those who suggest some kind of counseling might be worth looking into. He's not outside the bounds of normal or anything but he needs to understand that it's not an appropriate way to behave and actually can put people in jail, and upsets them. The goal isn't to make him feel bad, but help him find ways to stop and predict what people will think of his actions, and then stop himself from doing them.

Absolutely. Is there any chance your son has been molested and is replaying it? If not I'd come down like a ton of bricks on him. Do everything you can to keep your daughter safe and don't let her feel ashamed or blame herself. Don't blame yourself either OP.

I am taking this very seriously. I am absolutely horrified and feel sick for DD.

DH has spoken to DS. DS has been hiding in his room since his friend left so he knows he has done something wrong. Which is something at least?

I will be making a few uncomfortable phonecalls tomorrow. DS will not be left alone with DD for the foreseeable future.

A few have mentioned sensory issues. This is definitely a concern- for a while at about 1 year, DS was obsessed with rubbing his face on our elbows. Since he was a about 8 months old, he has (for want of a better description) humped his bed. He used to do it while playing too. Now he just does it occasionally at bedtime, especially when he id very tired.

I‘ve mentioned these things to a paediatrician who wasn’t concerned. No problems at school either- he is relatively quiet and works hard, and is popular with the other children.