DS touched DD, WTF do I do??

[Tazzietoes]

Sorry if this is long.

DS is 7, DD was 4 at the end of August. Today DS had a friend over, who is 8 and in the year above.

They went to play outside in the garden together. DD was being a bit of an annoying little sister and it gave me memories of when I used to follow my sister and her friends around. I wasn’t watching them the whole time, but had the door open to listen and checked every few minutes to make sure they weren’t doing anything they shouldn’t.

I was making them a snack when I heard DD crying. I looked out and she was standing with her jeans and pants around her knees and both boys kneeling next to her. I hate to say it but I exploded, asked what on earth they thought they were doing and to get inside straight away. I sent DS straight ip to his room so I could calm down. I told DD I wasn’t shouting at her, she wasn’t in trouble. I asked what happened and she said that both boys touched her. I asked DS‘s friend what had happened, he said DS pulled down DD trousers and touched her. He said the whole time to stop but DS didn’t.

I went up to DS and asked him what happened. He said DD was annoying them and they wanted her to go away. He admitted touching her and said his friend did too. I repeated that what is inside pants is private and I was very shocked by his behaviour. He was almost crying which he never does, so I think he knows how serious it is.

So WTF do I do now?? DS has always had pretty poor boundaries no matter how much I‘ve tried to teach him. He always gets right in everyone’s face to the point that they push him away. I‘ve always told him that people don’t like it and he needs to back off. But it’s like talking to a brick wall.

He‘s at the age of everything being about willies and bums and poo. But he takes it too far, he keeps pulling down his trousers randomly and laughing his head off.

When he was nearly 6 there was a whole drama at school- he said an older boy (10) had touched his willy at break time. Lots of sleepless nights later, it turns out he was annoying the boy, who hit DS in between his legs. The boy said DS had been showing his willy and always trying to hug him. After this incident, we had strong words with DS about body privacy.

Just a few weeks ago he ran up behind me and pinched me where my pubic hair is. Once again, I sternly told him that what is in pants is private.

I don’t know what to do. I’m worried that DS is going to turn out to be a bad person. He just finds it all hilarious. I know the curiosity is normal but this seems like more than that. He has zero respect for other people’s bodies and obviously hasn’t listened to is when we‘ve discussed it over the years.

In all other ways he is a kind and caring boy who is doing excellent at school and has lots of friends. What should I do now??

Your poor DD. You’ve got to imagine how YOU would feel if someone pulled down your trousers and underwear and touched your vulva because you were annoying them. It’s not normal. It doesn’t even make sense. Whatever you do, do not let them be unsupervised together.

A friend of mine works in a facility for children who have abused their siblings and have had to be removed from their families because of it. Lots of them start off doing things similar to what you’ve described and it progresses and escalates into further sexual abuse. It is typically siblings or other close family members that they abuse. You’ve got to do something serious to stop this as it’s clear he isn’t listening and he obviously is exhibiting behaviours that are not age appropriate and will eventually traumatise your DD.

Just to echo what other posters have already said...
You must NEVER under any circumstance leave your DD alone with him again.
This could seriously escalate OP if it's not dealt with now when he is still very young.
I read your original post and genuinly felt scared for your daughter.😔

Being taught about bodies early is a major protective factor in preventing sexual abuse.

Not necessarily true. I’ve been in Safeguarding for 30 and would suggest the OP talks to a local Safeguarding lead (school or Church) or Social Services. I’d give this advice in real life too.

If he was touching his sister's private parts - without her consent, although at that age, she couldn't consent anyway - then he was sexually assaulting her. His age doesn't come into it.

No point brushing facts under the carpet.

Loads of kids are very sexually aware at 7. I knew what sex was by that age - my best friend at primary school was very overtly sexual, she was always showing her bits to the boys, and once got taken out of class for asking our form teacher (a man) to 'mate' with her. Her father went to prison for paedophilia. (NOT trying to freak out the OP here as obviously that was a specific and quite shocking thing from my own childhood - I am just mentioning it to demonstrate that not all sexual behaviour demonstrated by kids is just them being interested in willies and bums).

Help with repeated instances of inappropriate touching, etc.

He needs help so that he doesn't do what he's done to his sister to anyone else. Even if his motivation was purely curiosity, he's still harmed his sister.

Does sound a bit weird, I've got to say. I had older brothers and cousins, and we often did sleepovers, etc, yet nothing like that ever happened to me.

Your DD isn't safe around him. He chose to strip her and touch her as punishment for annoying him. This should be raising every single red flag for you, and the other incidents show he has absolutely no boundaries whatsoever, his behaviour is disturbing. You need to engage with other services now, start by informing the school safeguarding. This is way past the point of you dealing with it.

Psychiatric/other professional input is likely a good idea IMO, not because being interested in genitals is especially depraved, but because OP has ongoing concerns related to several incidents and is worried about her DS.

This little boy is seven years old. He’s not a sexual predator and he didn’t do it to humiliate and control.

He did it as he felt she was being annoying,. That is trying to control, punish, and/or humiliate someone.

Plus, there is actually noth8ng sexual about lots of rape and sexual assault. Often it is about power, control, dominance and is not a sexual thing.

This little boy is seven years old. He’s not a sexual predator and he didn’t do it to humiliate and control.

I think he's old enough t know that pulling someone's trousers down let alone pants is done to humiliate.

Then for two older boys to be staring & touching?

Op's daughter must have been terrified.

The also doing it when there is "back up".

The whole idea behind RSE and Stay Safe education in primary schools here in Ireland is to PROTECT children, to give them an understanding of their rights to bodily autonomy, and in my opinion it’s a very good thing and certainly not “exposing” them to anything!

I think I’d be concerned that someone was abusing him or the other boy, because it’s very unusual behaviour. As is touching you. Write down the dates these things occurred. Here in the uk I would speak to the safeguarding lead at school or the GP. I’d expect them to point me towards help.

@horseyhorsey17 it should be dealt with but age of course comes into it. What about a two year old? Where would you personally draw the line? And yes, you could ask me the same thing and I honestly don’t know but seven is too young regardless of how aware they are.

Just echoing this. As someone who was abused by their older sibling, this needs to be dealt with. There are some incredibly permissive and naive posters on here. This child is not a ‘baby’. He knows what he was doing, and his sister was uncomfortable with it and he still persisted. There is not a day that goes by when I don’t think about my experiences. I wish my parents had not written off my siblings behaviour as ‘just one of those things’. It was incredibly harmful to me. This child is also at risk of things becoming very tricky for him once he turns 10 and is at the age of criminal responsibility.

Your DS's behaviour is very much on the edge of " normal curiosity" and is spillng over into harmful. In any event he upset and humiliated his sister which is definitely not ok. I would contact both the school and Children's services TBH, I wouldn't fancy trying to " go it alone".

This is the scheme which most organisations in the UK used to evaluate this type of thing.

Name change for this. I don’t want to make you feel worse but your daughter is being forgotten in many of these replies. A similar thing happened to me as a child, a neighbours son, and it deeply affected me for a very long time. I was quite a sensitive child so there’s every chance your daughter might brush it off and forget it but in hindsight I would have benefitted from therapy/counselling. Small difference no adults ever knew what happened to me but I felt shame and anger for many years and it took me a long time to come to terms with it. I think it is far better that you know what happened. You can reassure her and let her know that it was in no way her fault. At the same time if there is a chance of her forgetting it that’s probably for the best. I’m sure the NSPCC will be able to advise the best way to deal with it.

For sure it could be a response to abuse too. SS or anyone you speak to will be aware of that and sensitive.

This. Social services are not big bad ogres - they will have experience of this - you don’t and they will be able to access the right support for both children. He must not be left unsupervised with any child- phone them today.

Yeah, but why can't a parent do that? Why do you need a psychiatrist?

My thoughts too. In some ways its silly behaviour, but the repeated pattern makes me wonder what he has/is being exposed to.

It could be stuff on line or it could be closer to home, but I'm sorry OP it is coming from somewhere. You need expert advice.

I can see how this is distressing for you from the point of view of DD being upset and implications for DS.

I’m worried that DS is going to turn out to be a bad person

That is NOT the only possible outcome. We appreciate the wider implications of what he's done but he probably doesn't - he's not sexually aware, it may be no different for him from drawing on the wall or biting someone's arm, for example.

I'm not expert in how to address his behaviour - clearly it does need to be addressed- but please don't be thinking he is doomed.

Absolutely all of this. That poor girl.

Sounds like your son had serious issues, this is repeated sexualised behaviour. You need to reach out to social services and school safeguarding for support and ensure he is NEVER left alone with DD again.