Any Muslim/ Jewish mamas against circumcision?

[Sleeplessem]

I’m expecting a boy, about 18 weeks so still a while to go yet but I know circumcision is a norm (at least on DH side of the family). It is typically done in the first few weeks of life.

For quite a few reasons, including anatomical ones (I went to a presentation on genital cutting and learned that until 18 months or so the foreskin is fused to the tip of the penis) I’m not for infantile circumcision. Luckily DH is of the same view, although he would still want it done In basically primary school age as he’s worried a) son would get bullied by other Muslim kids (I’ve heard of this tbf so it’s not entirely ridiculous, b) we’d be failing to do a religious requirement and c) that it might not get done. Me I’m more about consent, if DS asked about it at 12, id explain the procedure, why it’s considered a good thing in our faith and if he wanted to go ahead it’s his choice, same for if he said later.

I know religiously there is a difference of opinion,
I’m of the school of thought that it’s sunnah rather than wajib or fardh.

DHs family will be enraged by my stance. It won’t sway me either way, but I’m thinking of ways now to just diffuse the conversation or shut it down. I can lose my rag a bit about stuff like this. Any mamas who have similar opinions been through this? What did you say? How did you make the stfu? Lol xx

@30degreesandmeltinghere

What is the worst his family can do op? Disown you all? Make sure they never have your ds unsupervised. .

I sound cold but I wouldn’t be fussed if they did. Obviously if my MIL disowned DH he’s be upset but over something so trivial, hopefully would show how pathetic she can be.

I’m anticipating that we will get a lot of harassment. Phone calls, unexpected visits, ‘concerned community members’ showing up at ILs house to put the pressure on, maybe even at our house but if they did I would lose my shit. I’m anticipating a lot of noise. It’s false but they equate being circumcised with being Muslim. I.e. you are not a Muslim male unless you are circumcised. There is also a tendency to involve as many people as possible in stuff like this so it gets messy and ugly. I’m guessing the aim of this behaviour is that the dissenter will change their minds. I won’t, but this won’t be something that they are used to.

Given your last post OP - yeah definitely just lie and say it was done at hospital

@RandomCatGenerator

Given your last post OP - yeah definitely just lie and say it was done at hospital

Not sure that’s possible. MIL will look after DS for an interim when I go back to work. Don’t worry she can’t do anything behind our backs, but she’d most certainly out us.

Im torn, part of me wants to have the conversation in the hopes that other parents in the family open their eyes, but I’m also thinking of just placating and saying oh yeah we’ll have it done later before puberty etc

OP, I’m nervous even posting because people can be so rabid on this topic and I won’t engage with trolls but I just wanted to ask if you’ve read about the plasti bell method? Maybe have a look and it will make you feel a little better about it all? All the best to you and your family, whatever your decision x

Most American baby boys are circumcised regardless of faith ( or they always used to be). So it is is not only a Jewish and Muslim practice.

I wouldn’t do it OP, but know it would be hard for you to resist the tradition.

It is unfortunate, even if it is understandable, that the fact that so many other people do it would mean DS would feel left out if he hadn’t - sways the argument. That means the practice carries on in a circular way.

If something is not right someone needs to be the first in a group to stop it. There are lots of things in the Old Testament we no longer do, or would even consider legal.

As for being cleaner, has nature got it so wrong?

The best bet for you would be lots of mums of the same faith grouping together on this so as to make a new force to back each other up.

(I am not Muslim or Jewish.)

@ScrollingLeaves

Most American baby boys are circumcised regardless of faith ( or they always used to be). So it is is not only a Jewish and Muslim practice.

I wouldn’t do it OP, but know it would be hard for you to resist the tradition.

It is unfortunate, even if it is understandable, that the fact that so many other people do it would mean DS would feel left out if he hadn’t - sways the argument. That means the practice carries on in a circular way.

If something is not right someone needs to be the first in a group to stop it. There are lots of things in the Old Testament we no longer do, or would even consider legal.

As for being cleaner, has nature got it so wrong?

The best bet for you would be lots of mums of the same faith grouping together on this so as to make a new force to back each other up.

(I am not Muslim or Jewish.)

I know it’s not exclusively a faith based practice but I do think it’s more emotive for faith based communities. I wouldn’t imagine an American family disowning a family member due to it not being done for instance.

I’m not going to get it done, regardless of the abuse I’ll face.

Unfortunately similar Muslim mums who feel the same are very hard to come by, mine is an absolute minority view. Even if others did think the same, it’s very hard to speak about in the faith community due to the harsh backlash

I can see it is a very much less emotive issue for Americans who are not circumcising their boys jkfor faith reasons. The only reason for mentioning Americans really was because I happened to know about it and thought maybe many other people reading this thread might not, and think it was solely a Jewish and Muslim practice.

You are very brave to stand up to all your on- law family in this way.

I remember some words in the Bible which say something like, “ I have given the world to you in your own time.” I can’t remember where but it might have been in the Old Testament. I took it to mean something along the lines that the rules for living can change from one generation to the next.

Maybe there are some like-minded Muslim
mumsnet followers who will come on this thread.

Orthodox Jewish mother with an uncircumcised son. My father would have liked it to have been done but we simply told them we were having a Brit Shalom (peaceful welcome) instead. I think having an alternative helped as it demonstrated my desire to bring him up within our faith and made it feel less like a rejection of the faith. Sadly because of covid we've yet to have anything but I'm due a second child later this year so will hopefully do a welcoming ceremony for them both.

Congratulations on your pregnancy @T0rt0ise

What does a Brit shalom entail (sorry that’s ignorant)? I’m wondering if it’s the same as an aqeeqah, a party of sorts where you traditionally slaughter a sheep or two for a feast and give the rest to the needy. Xx

@Sleeplessem
Haha, no, nothing like that. It's basically a naming ceremony where you outline your hopes for your child in the future within the context of their religious (and for us, non religious) experiences.

Traditionally baby girls had a simchat bat (naming ceremony), whilst baby boys had a brit milah (circumcision) so a brit shalom is more in line with the traditional baby girl ceremony.

@T0rt0ise

Traditionally baby girls had a simchat bat (naming ceremony), whilst baby boys had a brit milah (circumcision) so a brit shalom is more in line with the traditional baby girl ceremony.

Ahh ok, I’m not sure there is an equivalent which is a shame and a little surprising given how similarities there are between our faiths ❤️

I think traditionally the baby is named at the aqeeqah too, as it’s traditionally on the 7th day, I think. The 7th day is another traditional time for circumcision too.

I’ve said traditional one million times in that paragraph lol.

Ah, it does sound similar then as, again, tradition is Judaism for both is the 7th day.

T0rt0ise - when you say your dad wanted it done, what about the Rabbi and what you call your orthodox community - do they just assume it has been?

@samG76 they're an open and welcoming community so it hasn't and I can't see it ever being an issue. My family are also heavily involved in the synagogue and contribute a lot so if anything was ever said my father would shut them straight down. Plus I've never known a rabbi ask to see a person's genitalia before allowing them to join the service so I think we're all good!

[quote Sleeplessem]@KaptainKaveman also I’d say to be honest it’s largely a tradition too, a ‘thing’ that people get done, honestly similarly to how it is in the states.

As I said in my original post I’m against infant circumcision. I’m about consent at a later age.

It’s never going to be a criminal act as it’s used sometimes medically. But I do agree it shouldn’t be done for Infants[/quote]
Sometimes they chop people’s legs off for medical reasons but you’d still go to jail if you did it to someone for “tradition”

@Aposterhasnoname yeah thanks for that perspective

i am muslim my husband is not. he said he doesnt want it but if i do he will respect it. i thoguht and search a lot and decided to not do it. moslty i didnt wanna take this responsibility. if he wants in the future he can get done any time.

Most the Australian men I have met are circumcised as babies. Not for any religious reasons at all. Apparently it is just seen by a lot of parents as more hygienic or something. Hot climate maybe. I don't know 🤷‍♀️

I assume that you hold a party for the occassion like Jews do.

Circumcision is removal of the foreskin that covers the penis and not an active part of the penis. The removal is primarily for hygeine reasons - ensuring bacteria isnt trapped. Theres less risk of urine infections, reduced risk of some STI's,
"Protection against penile cancer and a lower risk of cervical cancer in female sex partners, Prevention of balanitis (inflammation of the glans) and balanoposthitis (inflammation of the glans and foreskin), Prevention of phimosis (the inability to retract the foreskin) and paraphimosis (the inability to return the foreskin to its original location)". The risks of getting it done is really around it not being done properly. Theres a suggestion that the earlier you get it done (i.e. babies) theres less risk of it going wrong and a quicker process.

Each to their own whether choose to get it done but its harsh to compare it to genital mutilation which is the removal of part of the actual genitals.

Removing the earlobe would be mutilation of the ear.

There is no difference and anyone claiming there is is lying to themselves and others.

What's wrong with teaching sons how to wash properly?