Any Muslim/ Jewish mamas against circumcision?

[Sleeplessem]

I’m expecting a boy, about 18 weeks so still a while to go yet but I know circumcision is a norm (at least on DH side of the family). It is typically done in the first few weeks of life.

For quite a few reasons, including anatomical ones (I went to a presentation on genital cutting and learned that until 18 months or so the foreskin is fused to the tip of the penis) I’m not for infantile circumcision. Luckily DH is of the same view, although he would still want it done In basically primary school age as he’s worried a) son would get bullied by other Muslim kids (I’ve heard of this tbf so it’s not entirely ridiculous, b) we’d be failing to do a religious requirement and c) that it might not get done. Me I’m more about consent, if DS asked about it at 12, id explain the procedure, why it’s considered a good thing in our faith and if he wanted to go ahead it’s his choice, same for if he said later.

I know religiously there is a difference of opinion,
I’m of the school of thought that it’s sunnah rather than wajib or fardh.

DHs family will be enraged by my stance. It won’t sway me either way, but I’m thinking of ways now to just diffuse the conversation or shut it down. I can lose my rag a bit about stuff like this. Any mamas who have similar opinions been through this? What did you say? How did you make the stfu? Lol xx

I picked 12 as an age out of the sky, not it would be brought up then.

His family as just like a dog with a bloody bone, it won’t be a one a time conversation. I understand that most of the people commenting aren’t Muslim so don’t seem to understand the saga this could be. For context there is another sunnah that is to do with shaving the baby’s head (now I think this is a beautiful tradition, because it’s not the mere act of shaving the head but the weight of the hair in gold/ silver is to be donated in monetary value to charity) but this is a sunnah for boys. And you wouldn’t believe the copious amounts of phone calls over weeks and months, some quite arsey over the fact we didn’t shave DD’s head. No one really cared about the charity but they were enraged we didn’t shave her head.

@MirandaMarple what’s your problem with the fact that i as part of my studies I went to a presentation on genital cutting. It wasn’t entirely on circumcision qua circumcision but the range of genital cutting (this is how the speaker, an academic referred to it) that happens in different cultures over the world. It was incredibly eye opening and sad.

@SimonJT DH mentioned post sports. As a girl I never showered naked so didn’t think that it would be a thing. But he said after football they would, not sure if this would happen now, we’re talking 25+ years ago now

[quote Sleeplessem]@SimonJT DH mentioned post sports. As a girl I never showered naked so didn’t think that it would be a thing. But he said after football they would, not sure if this would happen now, we’re talking 25+ years ago now[/quote]
Children very rarely shower at school, sports clubs are very rarely religion specific, no one is looking any other peoples genitals in the shower after play.

Stay strong, and keep shutting the discussion down. You will get loads of support on here.

I understand that children do not need to adhere to modesty held by the religious practice until 10? But maybe you can get your in laws to quiet down about talking about it by saying that the discussion of male genitals not with a medical professional is not modest? I'm just throwing it out there some of my family are Muslims but I have no idea wether they have followed this practice or not.

There are Imams who strongly believe that circumcisions only serve a point when adult men do them, as the pain itself is meant to be a test of faith & use the prophets and other men mentioned in the quran as examples. They can then support you with their stance when it comes to defending yourself against close family (who might risk getting it done privately when they have care of the child; so you will never be able to trust them). However I’m not sure where you can find them!

Just keep repeating that its not up for discussion and that they can choose for themselves once they get to 18. Youre doing the right thing.

I understand that most of the people commenting aren’t Muslim so don’t seem to understand the saga this could be

I don't think it genuinely matters. All families have things they might fall out over when it comes to raising future generations you shut the arguments down in the same way anyone would when their parenting choices are questioned.

If you stick to a united front and refuse to engage then there's not much they can do other than comment behind your back and if they do that so what.

@Draculaswedding

Both my DBs were circumcised at a week of age. One of them has had problems due to this throughout his life and bitterly resents that this unnecessary and barbaric procedure was inflicted on him. If I’d had a boy it would be over my dead body that he would have been circumcised. It’s abuse and I also don’t care what the Torah might have to say about it or how a boy cannot be a proper Jew without a bit of his body being removed. I would have refused to discuss it with family members. You will be your DSs parents, you are the ones who are responsible for his well-being and care and thankfully both you and your DP agree you don’t want this doing so you won’t be fighting one another over it. Stand firm and say you aren’t prepared to discuss it with anyone and repeat this as often as necessary. As for potential future bullying well kids can be bullied for all sorts of wild and wonderful reasons most of which are difficult to predict. I don’t think the chance of this happening is a good reason to go ahead with something you feel strongly about. It’s appalling we do this to boys. We need to challenge it.

I’m sorry about your DB, that’s one of the many reasons why I’m so against it.

It doesn’t help that ours, religiously speaking, is a minority view but more parents need to start speaking out and being firm rather than bowing to tradition. It irks me, as there are many (wonderful) islamic traditions that have been left by the wayside yet this is one has stuck. Not sure if it’s the same in Judaism

@GreenCrayon, I say this with respect but it does carry much more significance in the Muslim and Jewish community than you might anticipate if you aren’t part of the community. Sorry that sounds exclusionary.

In terms of actions, yeah they can’t do anything I’m just looking for hints from folks who’ve had this same issue on shutting down the convo, ideally any scholars who agree would be fab (although unlikely I think). DD is 2 and I still get crap about now shaving her head for instance

Also to the few comments that said about living DS alone with family, don’t worry that will never ever ever In one billion years happen xx

DH was circumcised at birth, (no religious reason, just wotpeopledid) when it;s a trivial little op. No problems whatever.

One of our sons had to be circumcised for medical reasons at age 3. It required a GA, and a lot of stitching, and a couple of weeks discomfort from the stitches and cut reasons)

If you're going to do it, do it at birth.

@Keepitnerdy

I understand that children do not need to adhere to modesty held by the religious practice until 10? But maybe you can get your in laws to quiet down about talking about it by saying that the discussion of male genitals not with a medical professional is not modest? I'm just throwing it out there some of my family are Muslims but I have no idea wether they have followed this practice or not.

This is a good suggestion. I like it, no one would dream about asking about an adults genitals.

Puberty i think it’s the age when religious duties become incumbent (so maybe 10 for some or 14 for others)

@2bazookas I think people only tend to think it’s trivial at birth because a newborn can’t really protest. But they are having surgery (in a body part that has a lot of nerve endings) without any sort of pain relief.

I had a friend who had it done as an adult (medical reasons) and he said the operation was fine, minimal pain and fairly quick healing. There was of course a period of abstinence that followed but he thought of the op as nbd, likely because of the anaesthetic and pain relief after x

Muslim mama of 3 girls here so the issue hasn't arised thus far

However I did read some about it and some people do a lesser extreme circumcision where they only sip a little bit of skin instead of prying the skin off the head. So you can read about that

Absolute abuse to do that to a baby/infant/child. Let him decide himself when he’s a grown up. Same goes for faith/religion. You’re supposed to protect your children.

@PigeonStreet37 I agree on circumcision but I don’t think it’s abuse to raise your child in a specific religion.

I say this with respect but it does carry much more significance in the Muslim and Jewish community than you might anticipate if you aren’t part of the community. Sorry that sounds exclusionary.

It doesn't sound exclusionary however as I said there are many cultures where something is expected because its always been done. The argument you'll be having(or not having as its better not to engage) is the same no matter whether there is cultural expectation or not.

If they won't listen to you then they won't listen to any logical supported argument you present or they will find 50 arguments to 'disprove' your viewpoint. Therefore Irrespective of the cultural expectations your best defence is to just state the facts calmly once and then ignore them every time its brought up after that. There is no way to 'win' in situations like this so honestly it's not worth even trying.

If you're religious and believe in God and that he makes all things, then surely you should believe that he would have designed boy babies to be born with their foreskin already loose, if that is better for them!!

@GreenCrayon

I say this with respect but it does carry much more significance in the Muslim and Jewish community than you might anticipate if you aren’t part of the community. Sorry that sounds exclusionary.

It doesn't sound exclusionary however as I said there are many cultures where something is expected because its always been done. The argument you'll be having(or not having as its better not to engage) is the same no matter whether there is cultural expectation or not.

If they won't listen to you then they won't listen to any logical supported argument you present or they will find 50 arguments to 'disprove' your viewpoint. Therefore Irrespective of the cultural expectations your best defence is to just state the facts calmly once and then ignore them every time its brought up after that. There is no way to 'win' in situations like this so honestly it's not worth even trying.

I do agree, and they will have one thousand arguments as to why it ‘must’ be done.

It won’t be me who is bringing up the conversation with family. And the family is as such that as soon as one member finds out it won’t be done then the hounding will start, with the shaving head thing, it was Phone calls and even house visits insisting so and so much be done. Tedious.

Not a mama but ex-jew atheist dad here who had the same issue from the moment we knew DS was going to be DS.

DW is from atheist family so no pressure there, however the expectation of circumcision from Jewish family & community is massive, even though I had obviously lived my entire adult life sans religion.

We stayed firm on no circumcision. As far as I'm concerned it's akin to tattooing your religion on an infant who like me may very well grow up to not believe in it.

It won’t be me who is bringing up the conversation with family. And the family is as such that as soon as one member finds out it won’t be done then the hounding will start, with the shaving head thing, it was Phone calls and even house visits insisting so and so much be done. Tedious.

So why do you stay in touch? If genuinely you cannot trust them with your children and all they do is bound you why persue a relationship. I know it's easier to say it than to follow through and cut contact but if they dont add anything of value to your life and instead cause all this anxiety and stress why bother?

@GreenCrayon

It won’t be me who is bringing up the conversation with family. And the family is as such that as soon as one member finds out it won’t be done then the hounding will start, with the shaving head thing, it was Phone calls and even house visits insisting so and so much be done. Tedious.

So why do you stay in touch? If genuinely you cannot trust them with your children and all they do is bound you why persue a relationship. I know it's easier to say it than to follow through and cut contact but if they dont add anything of value to your life and instead cause all this anxiety and stress why bother?

It’s not my family. It’s DH’s and to be honest with you 363 days of the year there is no contact, not due to bad blood but it’s just how it is. I say 363 as there are 2 eids where eid mubarak texts are exchanged.

This crap tends to come from ‘elders’ too. There is a (toxic) cultural thing that you can’t stand up to, or disobey elders, some logic about respect. Luckily DH does stand up to them respectfully but its created this feeling of entitlement amongst that generation in his fam.

@McPancreas

Not a mama but ex-jew atheist dad here who had the same issue from the moment we knew DS was going to be DS.

DW is from atheist family so no pressure there, however the expectation of circumcision from Jewish family & community is massive, even though I had obviously lived my entire adult life sans religion.

We stayed firm on no circumcision. As far as I'm concerned it's akin to tattooing your religion on an infant who like me may very well grow up to not believe in it.

Sorry man I should have titled my post parents, hope no offense was caused.

Can I ask how you shut down the convo?