Page 8 | Any Muslim/ Jewish mamas against circumcision?

Original poster

Sleeplessem · 21/06/2021 12:10

[quote BumCheeseIsNotCheese]OP People go no contact on Mumsnet over bad BBQs. Everyone tries to pretendMN is all liberal and tolerant but they can't possibly fathom that differentcultures do things differently. And that people may not want to end their relationships with beloved family members over somethingthat can be dealt with in an adult way. Have you looked at any of the anti-circumcisiongroups by Muslims to see if you can get better answers? It perfectly apparent to anyone who can read and use an internet forum that you are anti-circumcisionso I can only assume some of these posters are trolling/racist.

I'm not Muslim or Jewish but it is culturally normal when I am from for boys to be circumcisedand I had a lot of conversations. People were coming mostly from the viewpoint of it being dirty which I just explained was horse shit. Calmly every time.

www.facebook.com/muslimsagainstcirc/[/quote]
Thank you! It was actually getting quite upsetting.

I’ve had a little look on that Fb page in particular, the posts are quite old but my logic absolutely follows theirs. Worries me how few likes it has xx

OP posts:

DeepThinkingGirl · 21/06/2021 12:13

Sleeplessem

I come from a very religious family and I didn’t shave my daughters head :S. It’s a known difference of opinion. My head was shaved by parents appreciated it’s a difference of opinion and I get to decide.

I really think there seems to be a control family dynamic and its riding on religion.

My dad comes from a family of scholars and he was circumcised aged 10, he remembers queuing up and walking back like a penguin with his cousins who all had it same age.

They’re not Hanady, they’re shafii.

Are you sure you’re not being subjected to spiritual abuse by someone who wants to blame religion for their power struggle ?

NakedNugget · 21/06/2021 12:13

I grasped it. You asked me the question about religions and I answered it. Had nothing to do with whether you were pro or against genital mutilation. You keep remarking that posters lack an understanding and yet you yourself are throwing wild accusations about and have what seems to be little ability to hear or understand others

Original poster

Sleeplessem · 21/06/2021 12:23

@DeepThinkingGirl

Sleeplessem

I come from a very religious family and I didn’t shave my daughters head :S. It’s a known difference of opinion. My head was shaved by parents appreciated it’s a difference of opinion and I get to decide.

I really think there seems to be a control family dynamic and its riding on religion.

My dad comes from a family of scholars and he was circumcised aged 10, he remembers queuing up and walking back like a penguin with his cousins who all had it same age.

They’re not Hanady, they’re shafii.

Are you sure you’re not being subjected to spiritual abuse by someone who wants to blame religion for their power struggle ?

To be honest, it’s 100% about control I think things like this always are and maintaining the status quo. There is no tolerance for differing opinions, even if it is fairly minor (as in the wiping over the socks for wudhu). It will be made worse by the fact I’m white so not a ‘real’ Muslim I’m their eyes.

OP posts:

grey12 · 21/06/2021 12:40

[quote Sleeplessem]@grey12 yeah I think drawing a comparison between them is wrong.

Re your point around DH, he will explain to them and say not having it done rn, it’s just simply the weight of cultural and religious tradition that is being bucked here is huge, it’s one of those that I don’t think you can fully understand unless you’re either Muslim or Jewish. for instance my friends, are all progressive, as am I, and yet mine is still an extreme minority position to have. So to be clear it’s not a question of just stepping up biting the billet and they’ll accept it, it will get ugly[/quote]
I am a muslim convert actually and have had some issues regarding cultural aspects from both sides.....

what I was saying was: I deal with my family's hidden prejudices and my husband deals with his family's pushy religious questions.

And not just religious subjects, anything goes. I'm not going to be insistent on his mother not spoon feeding my kids (eldest is nearly freaking 5 ), DH has to have those conversations with his family, it's not me being the disagreeable one all the time

Original poster

Sleeplessem · 21/06/2021 12:45

@grey12 totally get where you’re coming from. Do you get the convert= not a real Muslim so opinions don’t count stuff too? That’s the tact DHs family will take and that combined with the entitlement of the older generation make this sort of stuff unrelenting.

OP posts:

grey12 · 21/06/2021 13:04

His family is not too bad actually. His mum is also a convert and his dad's family have always been nice.

I think we've had more issue from my side Arabic names, praying "too much" (I'm not even the best prayer ), christmas, halal food.... but I don't want DH dealing with this. My parents are nice but I have lived in a more diverse society than they have so they're a bit set in their ways, in comparison.

Other posters have said, the issues will be mainly with the very close family. Your friends and acquaintances won't ask about it. Nobody said anything about us not cutting our daughters' hair, even the friends who did it to their daughters.

Original poster

Sleeplessem · 21/06/2021 13:11

@grey12

His family is not too bad actually. His mum is also a convert and his dad's family have always been nice.

I think we've had more issue from my side Arabic names, praying "too much" (I'm not even the best prayer ), christmas, halal food.... but I don't want DH dealing with this. My parents are nice but I have lived in a more diverse society than they have so they're a bit set in their ways, in comparison.

Other posters have said, the issues will be mainly with the very close family. Your friends and acquaintances won't ask about it. Nobody said anything about us not cutting our daughters' hair, even the friends who did it to their daughters.

I get that from my family too.

I think you’re lucky that MIL is a convert, the family is already more diverse than my ILs. Until maybe 5 years ago consanguineous marriages were expected. It will be immediate family that ask, but the immediate family is still quite large, any comments from acquaintances will be easy to shut down, it’s the relentlessness of family. I’d love to be able to give DH some tips to have these convos.

Dh got a lot a flack from the extended immediate family about the hair, im talking phone calls and unexpected visits

OP posts:

BigBlueDesk · 21/06/2021 15:49

@Sleeplessem

I’m expecting a boy, about 18 weeks so still a while to go yet but I know circumcision is a norm (at least on DH side of the family). It is typically done in the first few weeks of life.

For quite a few reasons, including anatomical ones (I went to a presentation on genital cutting and learned that until 18 months or so the foreskin is fused to the tip of the penis) I’m not for infantile circumcision. Luckily DH is of the same view, although he would still want it done In basically primary school age as he’s worried a) son would get bullied by other Muslim kids (I’ve heard of this tbf so it’s not entirely ridiculous, b) we’d be failing to do a religious requirement and c) that it might not get done. Me I’m more about consent, if DS asked about it at 12, id explain the procedure, why it’s considered a good thing in our faith and if he wanted to go ahead it’s his choice, same for if he said later.

I know religiously there is a difference of opinion,
I’m of the school of thought that it’s sunnah rather than wajib or fardh.

DHs family will be enraged by my stance. It won’t sway me either way, but I’m thinking of ways now to just diffuse the conversation or shut it down. I can lose my rag a bit about stuff like this. Any mamas who have similar opinions been through this? What did you say? How did you make the stfu? Lol xx

OP, I'm sorry that this thread has been derailed when it's quite clear that you've thought about this issue deeply and want to do what's right for you son.

I'm Muslim and my DH isn't. We don't have any DC but are thinking of ttc. Circumcision was our stumbling block but I've recently decided that I'm happy not to go ahead with it if we have a son. We'll still raise him Muslim, giving him the option of getting it done privately when he's old enough. DH is actually circumcised (medical reasons) so it's what we both know, but I can't do that to my son without his consent.

If we do have a son, we're planning to just avoid the conversation. I'm more concerned about my parents, but we've decided that we'll let them tell relatives that our son can't be circumcised for 'medical reasons' if it's easier for them.

If you're not willing to lie, then maybe the 'modesty'/ I don't want to discuss my child's genitals idea might work.

I know how tough it is. In my family, when people ask if you've circumcised your son yet, they often say 'have you made him a Muslim yet?' It's going to take a lot to let people know that you can be Muslim and not circumcised. Good luck!

Original poster

Sleeplessem · 21/06/2021 16:04

Thank you @BigBlueDesk, it got quite upsetting being constantly attacked, comparing circumcision to isis and being called barbaric as I’m genuinely reaching out for help, and I can’t exactly post on a Muslim forum and ask this sort of advice. Thanks for your kind words

His family unequivocally believe you are not Muslim unless you are circumcised and it will be very difficult for DH to combat this. It won’t change our minds but it will be unrelenting, especially because they believe I’m not a real Muslim because I’m white and liberal, so this will be a red flag to a bull and will be perceived as me not only dragging their son away from Islam but DC too. Lying just isn’t an option as MIL will out us.
I was thinking of contorting the truth a little and say we’ll get it done before puberty and then hoping they forget and I think it will be easier to shut down conversation around a teens genitals than a baby’s.

OP posts:

BigBlueDesk · 21/06/2021 16:22

@Sleeplessem, that's a good idea. He'll probably need to be an adult in order to get in done privately too.

Speaking as someone in your DH's position, in his Conservative family's eyes, he's done the worst- he married out- everything else just follows from there. It doesn't make them stop making comments, but it helps me thinking of it in that way. I married a white guy, they can't touch me now.

Original poster

Sleeplessem · 21/06/2021 16:30

[quote BigBlueDesk]@Sleeplessem, that's a good idea. He'll probably need to be an adult in order to get in done privately too.

Speaking as someone in your DH's position, in his Conservative family's eyes, he's done the worst- he married out- everything else just follows from there. It doesn't make them stop making comments, but it helps me thinking of it in that way. I married a white guy, they can't touch me now.[/quote]
I think in his culture women marry into the family so it’s the belief I should adopt everything as to what they say because they know best.

That must have been tough to marry a non Muslim. DH family would have disowned him , even though Muslim men as we know can marry Christians or Jews. I was Muslim before anyway, not that it really matters to them.

OP posts:

BigBlueDesk · 21/06/2021 16:52

@Sleeplessem I think we're probably from the same culture.

It wasn't easy, but DH was/ is worth it. He's the most moral person I know and has a heart of gold.

I'm sorry you've been treated like that, it's so difficult to explain what it's like to those with no experience of it. Inshallah it'll all work out in the end. You have each other and your DC which is the most important thing.

Original poster

Sleeplessem · 21/06/2021 16:57

[quote BigBlueDesk]@Sleeplessem I think we're probably from the same culture.

It wasn't easy, but DH was/ is worth it. He's the most moral person I know and has a heart of gold.

I'm sorry you've been treated like that, it's so difficult to explain what it's like to those with no experience of it. Inshallah it'll all work out in the end. You have each other and your DC which is the most important thing.[/quote]
South Asian?

I just hope DH stands firm, i mean we won’t be getting it done either way as I won’t allow it, but the constant noise re shaving dds head ground him down before x

OP posts:

DeepThinkingGirl · 21/06/2021 16:58

Op try solace U.K., they offer support for revert women because at times culture clash is made worse when religious intolerance comes in between

Original poster

Sleeplessem · 21/06/2021 17:00

@DeepThinkingGirl

Op try solace U.K., they offer support for revert women because at times culture clash is made worse when religious intolerance comes in between

Oh yeah I’m aware of solace, I chatted to them when I first became Muslim. Odd time, got spat at in the street by a group of Muslim lads, people were horrid etc but I think they’ll most likely be pro circumcision xx

OP posts:

BigBlueDesk · 21/06/2021 17:13

@Sleeplessem Yes! Our culture isn't the most welcoming of change and difference, as you've found out. I hope your DH doesn't get so ground down this time.

Sidneysussex · 21/06/2021 17:25

Hi, We told them it was done at birth in the hospital. They have never changed a nappy and haven't figured out it's never done at birth in UK hospitals In fact it's not done on the NHS.
No way ever was any baby of mine going to be mutilated.
I lied, husband stayed silent. We live rurally so they have no idea what's the norm were we live so probably do think our local hospital does it. It's never come up against in over 15 years now, and they will certainly never get a chance to check now

grey12 · 21/06/2021 21:30

Very good article:

www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.psychologytoday.com/gb/blog/moral-landscapes/201509/letter-happily-circumcised-father%3famp

georgarina · 21/06/2021 21:44

@Sleeplessem

I didn't face backlash. My family is so much more progressive now than they were. They obviously have their beliefs and thoughts on right and wrong but whereas before you would be shunned and pushed out (even when I was a child), now in my family it's much more relaxed. The community has gotten a lot more tolerant in my experience.

Happinesscomesfromwithin · 21/06/2021 21:50

Sorry I'm a Muslim and in my opinion you can't pick and choose what you follow. This is in the pillers of Islam to submit yourself to Allah and know that everything prescribed has wisdom behind it. Do it in the first few days after birth, it's a simple procedure and noone I know has had any complications after the procedure for their sons. Plus all Muslim and Jewish men have it done and they are fine.

Original poster

Sleeplessem · 21/06/2021 22:17

@Happinesscomesfromwithin

Sorry I'm a Muslim and in my opinion you can't pick and choose what you follow. This is in the pillers of Islam to submit yourself to Allah and know that everything prescribed has wisdom behind it. Do it in the first few days after birth, it's a simple procedure and noone I know has had any complications after the procedure for their sons. Plus all Muslim and Jewish men have it done and they are fine.

Hanafi madhab and (I think) Maliki consider it a sunnah not fardh or wajib. There are also two times in which it can be done the 7th day or anytime before puberty. So it doesn’t have to be done after birth.

I don’t think it’s picking and choosing as there are many sunnahs that the Muslim community don’t follow as strictly. Ibrahim was circumcised at 80, so I do feel as if my child can make the choice for himself.

OP posts:

Original poster

Sleeplessem · 21/06/2021 22:18

[quote georgarina]@Sleeplessem

I didn't face backlash. My family is so much more progressive now than they were. They obviously have their beliefs and thoughts on right and wrong but whereas before you would be shunned and pushed out (even when I was a child), now in my family it's much more relaxed. The community has gotten a lot more tolerant in my experience.[/quote]
I’m happy for you! But that’s not my experience

OP posts:

movingadviceneeded · 22/06/2021 12:06

@Happinesscomesfromwithin mutilating a child's genitals at 3 days old is horrific.

30degreesandmeltinghere · 22/06/2021 12:12

What is the worst his family can do op?
Disown you all?
Make sure they never have your ds unsupervised.
.