Any Muslim/ Jewish mamas against circumcision?

[Sleeplessem]

I’m expecting a boy, about 18 weeks so still a while to go yet but I know circumcision is a norm (at least on DH side of the family). It is typically done in the first few weeks of life.

For quite a few reasons, including anatomical ones (I went to a presentation on genital cutting and learned that until 18 months or so the foreskin is fused to the tip of the penis) I’m not for infantile circumcision. Luckily DH is of the same view, although he would still want it done In basically primary school age as he’s worried a) son would get bullied by other Muslim kids (I’ve heard of this tbf so it’s not entirely ridiculous, b) we’d be failing to do a religious requirement and c) that it might not get done. Me I’m more about consent, if DS asked about it at 12, id explain the procedure, why it’s considered a good thing in our faith and if he wanted to go ahead it’s his choice, same for if he said later.

I know religiously there is a difference of opinion,
I’m of the school of thought that it’s sunnah rather than wajib or fardh.

DHs family will be enraged by my stance. It won’t sway me either way, but I’m thinking of ways now to just diffuse the conversation or shut it down. I can lose my rag a bit about stuff like this. Any mamas who have similar opinions been through this? What did you say? How did you make the stfu? Lol xx

@NakedNugget shouldn’t have asked. Again not the purpose of this post

Yet people of ISIS will tell you their barbaric acts are 'just tradition'

You can't label crimes with the word tradition and expect people to understand or to excuse yourself... it's genital mutilation and it's wrong. It's a crime. It's abuse.

@NakedNugget

Yet people of ISIS will tell you their barbaric acts are 'just tradition'

You can't label crimes with the word tradition and expect people to understand or to excuse yourself... it's genital mutilation and it's wrong. It's a crime. It's abuse.

I’ve also never said I’m pro circumcision, please read my post before commenting. This is tedious.

@Sleeplessem oh I know... I was just giving you some ideas of what you can say to your in laws to shut their warped beliefs down

[quote NakedNugget]@Sleeplessem oh I know... I was just giving you some ideas of what you can say to your in laws to shut their warped beliefs down [/quote]
Yeah I don’t think comparing circumcision to isis is the way to go here, but thanks!

It's pissed you off as it's hit a nerve.

@1940s

It's pissed you off as it's hit a nerve.

No it’s pissed me off because you haven’t read the purpose of the post. It’s not to get your personal opinion on circumcision Karen.

You’ve always completely misinterpreted everything I said on purpose as I’ve never once stated lm considering circumcision to appease my in laws.

I just wanted to say good luck, I'm not Muslim but Irish Catholic and I know my grandmother who was in no way pushy didn't consider my sister who had no priest at her wedding actually married.
I think she had masses said for her and her child as he was born "in sin" as a consequence of his parents completely legal marriage.
So I do understand the strength of feeling that comes from people who really do believe that without the religious practice/tradition their beloved family member has their soul put at risk.
Maybe your DH could take the pp's line that any religious judgement will fall on you the parents rather then your son or his grandparents?
And you are both willing to bear that burden as you believe yourselves to be doing right in God's eyes.

I actually said anyone. Not you. Oh and Karen? Really? Poor form from you OP

@1940s

I actually said anyone. Not you. Oh and Karen? Really? Poor form from you OP

Thanks for your input again

Not read the full thread @Sleeplessem but in terms of shutting down the conversation would something along the lines of 'I'm not discussing male genitalia with you, I find it immodest' work at all?

@anothernamereally

Not read the full thread *@Sleeplessem* but in terms of shutting down the conversation would something along the lines of 'I'm not discussing male genitalia with you, I find it immodest' work at all?

Save yourself the hassle lol. There are a few decent suggestions on how people have shut down similar conversations but it’s mainly a lot of people who have just commented ‘omg it’s genital mutilation and child abuse’.

But I think that’s one way of handling it and I’ll definitely look to say something very similar as to ‘I don’t find it appropriate to discuss my child’s genitals with you’. DH didn’t seem to think for him it would be weighty enough to shut down the flack he’ll get xx

Maybe DH will handle the flack with something weightier such as 'it's barbaric child abuse and is genital mutilation'?

I'm really not sure how it's not the same?

We can all collectively agree that the KKK were wrong to persecute people of colour and other religions... yet they say it's ok

But why is it when we come to genital mutilation it's not the same? Just because it hides under Muslim or Judaism religions doesn't make it ok or not comparable.

I know you're saying you don't want it for your son, lucky him. but you are still defending the act itself and tolerating your in laws beliefs under the guise of religion.

The fact that it is only done in the uk as a last resort and only for a medical issue means that anyone actively encouraging it in a child's life is surely toxic and abusive. Those people would ordinarily be removed from the child's life, not appeased. Oh but it's religion so we can't do that?

Also as a side note. Calling women Karen is just another way men have found to shut women down... it's ridiculous that any other women would call another woman a Karen.

Ok you are clearly islamaphobic. To be clear none of my extended family are members or isis or any other sort of terrorist organisation

Wait what? I'm against islam because I don't support the caliphate now? Wow

@NakedNugget

I'm really not sure how it's not the same?

We can all collectively agree that the KKK were wrong to persecute people of colour and other religions... yet they say it's ok

But why is it when we come to genital mutilation it's not the same? Just because it hides under Muslim or Judaism religions doesn't make it ok or not comparable.

I know you're saying you don't want it for your son, lucky him. but you are still defending the act itself and tolerating your in laws beliefs under the guise of religion.

The fact that it is only done in the uk as a last resort and only for a medical issue means that anyone actively encouraging it in a child's life is surely toxic and abusive. Those people would ordinarily be removed from the child's life, not appeased. Oh but it's religion so we can't do that?

Also as a side note. Calling women Karen is just another way men have found to shut women down... it's ridiculous that any other women would call another woman a Karen.

I think this is where being a non jew or non Muslim makes this conversation more tricky.

The reason they aren’t like for like, is because even the most extreme Muslim nations and extremely conservative (non terrorist) Muslim scholars and nations (saudi, qatar etc) denounced isis stating its not a part of the religion in fact it’s a huge deviation from it. However circumcision is very much a mainstream practice and most scholars even those considered moderate uphold this view. It is a view I do not agree with.

Also I have not defended the practice once, I’m stating it is mainstream which (sadly ) is a fact. It is a discussion that needs to be had inside the faith communities themselves not for people on the outside to just shout and scream this is barbaric as ultimately that is counter productive and will further other the Muslim community and create more of an us v them environment which is what fuels practices such as these.

@NakedNugget

Ok you are clearly islamaphobic. To be clear none of my extended family are members or isis or any other sort of terrorist organisation

Wait what? I'm against islam because I don't support the caliphate now? Wow

What a wonderful misinterpretation, congratulations.

Honestly comments like this are just beyond unhelpful. We all share the same views about involuntary circumcision. I came here genuinely asking for support. There will be other Muslim mums that will read this thread and think there is no safe space to have this conversation because Isis gets thrown in our face.

I absolutely agree it needs to be had inside the faith communities. But it also absolutely needs to happen outside of faith communities too. As a human and a parent I can not keep quiet on barbaric practices just because they aren't part of my faith.

The louder everyone else shouts about it being wrong the more chance faith leaders and governments will listen and take action.

I understand your point. There's nuances I'm sure that cannot be understood from people outside the faith but it doesn't hurt to have the input of those people to highlight where things are clearly not ok. Otherwise these things continue blindly on.

@1940s

I absolutely agree it needs to be had inside the faith communities. But it also absolutely needs to happen outside of faith communities too. As a human and a parent I can not keep quiet on barbaric practices just because they aren't part of my faith.

The louder everyone else shouts about it being wrong the more chance faith leaders and governments will listen and take action.

This is where you are incorrect. The louder non Muslims shout about specifically Muslim issues, the harder conservatives cling to their traditions.

My fear would be the practice to move underground. However bad we all agree it to be now, it would be worse then.

@NakedNugget

I understand your point. There's nuances I'm sure that cannot be understood from people outside the faith but it doesn't hurt to have the input of those people to highlight where things are clearly not ok. Otherwise these things continue blindly on.

But this is assuming muslims don’t question anything or can’t think for themselves without non Muslims pointing things out for them and that’s problematic

My nephew is Muslim. He won't be having it done.

*What a wonderful misinterpretation, congratulations.

Honestly comments like this are just beyond unhelpful. We all share the same views about involuntary circumcision. I came here genuinely asking for support. There will be other Muslim mums that will read this thread and think there is no safe space to have this conversation because Isis gets thrown in our face.*

How is it my misinterpretation? You called me islamaphobic? There's nothing to be misunderstood there.

And no one is throwing Isis in your face. You stated it's not abuse to bring children up in specific religions. I said that depends what religion and stated kkk, Isis, Illuminati, children of god and yet the only one you took an issue with is ISIS? I'm not comparing your religion to them at all, you did that. If you found similarities that's on you. All I've said is that just because one religion (choose any of the above) thinks something is ok because 'tradition says so' doesn't make it ok.

I don't think you'll ever stop people highlighting child abuse for fear of conservative Muslims moving the practice underground. There will be families that on understanding the huge huge majority of people disagree with the practice will find strength to stop doing it to their own child. We will never ever stamp out child abuse but the majority of people also won't be quiet about it either.