Any Muslim/ Jewish mamas against circumcision?

[Sleeplessem]

I’m expecting a boy, about 18 weeks so still a while to go yet but I know circumcision is a norm (at least on DH side of the family). It is typically done in the first few weeks of life.

For quite a few reasons, including anatomical ones (I went to a presentation on genital cutting and learned that until 18 months or so the foreskin is fused to the tip of the penis) I’m not for infantile circumcision. Luckily DH is of the same view, although he would still want it done In basically primary school age as he’s worried a) son would get bullied by other Muslim kids (I’ve heard of this tbf so it’s not entirely ridiculous, b) we’d be failing to do a religious requirement and c) that it might not get done. Me I’m more about consent, if DS asked about it at 12, id explain the procedure, why it’s considered a good thing in our faith and if he wanted to go ahead it’s his choice, same for if he said later.

I know religiously there is a difference of opinion,
I’m of the school of thought that it’s sunnah rather than wajib or fardh.

DHs family will be enraged by my stance. It won’t sway me either way, but I’m thinking of ways now to just diffuse the conversation or shut it down. I can lose my rag a bit about stuff like this. Any mamas who have similar opinions been through this? What did you say? How did you make the stfu? Lol xx

@GreenCrayon

It’s never going to be a criminal act as it’s used sometimes medically. But I do agree it shouldn’t be done for Infants

I don't get this argument. If I cut off my toddlers arm or any other fully functioning part of his body for no reason I'd expect to have him removed from my care and most likely end up in jail. How is it not the same for circumcision??

But it's done when it doesn't fully function. My toddler DS has a very tight foreskin at the mo. The foreskin doesn't retract at all and he frequently gets UTIs. We are waiting a little while (1-2 more years) to see how things pan out, but we have been advised he might need a circumcision when older. He will have very painful erections otherwise, anongst other problems. I really don't want him to be circumcised but I don't want him to live a hindered life either.

It’s not my family. It’s DH’s and to be honest with you 363 days of the year there is no contact, not due to bad blood but it’s just how it is. I say 363 as there are 2 eids where eid mubarak texts are exchanged.

So you don't see them in person and only communicate via phone? If so I don't even see why you need to have any ways to change the subject, I'd just be ignoring the question or try to redirect the conversation if it was said on a phone call or hanging up if they persisted.

But it's done when it doesn't fully function.

I understand it's done if medically necessary but that's no reason to make it not a criminal act. My argument was that amputating someones arm would be a crime if done for any other reason than being medically necessary. So the argument that sometimes its needed shouldn't stop it from being illegal the 99% of times its done for a non medical need.

@GreenCrayon

It’s not my family. It’s DH’s and to be honest with you 363 days of the year there is no contact, not due to bad blood but it’s just how it is. I say 363 as there are 2 eids where eid mubarak texts are exchanged.

So you don't see them in person and only communicate via phone? If so I don't even see why you need to have any ways to change the subject, I'd just be ignoring the question or try to redirect the conversation if it was said on a phone call or hanging up if they persisted.

Again not me it’s DH, we did that before and that’s how we got some unexpected visits and im Talking people we hadn’t seen since our wedding. He’ll get a lot of flack from his parents too, who he does see and communicate with much more frequently. They will see it as a sin or a slight against the religion and a source of shame (big thing culturally, again toxic)

I was born into a muslim family. I married my british husband who reverted to islam for his own reasons a few years before I met him. He was under some pressure to get it done as an adult but was told by a shaykh that what matters most for him as an adult is cleanliness not actually having the circumcision done.
When our son was born, my husband did not want to have it done so we haven't. This has caused a huge upset with my side of the family but I just couldn't bare to put my baby through it. I stuck to my guns. I was already known as the rebellious one for marrying 'out' into a white British family even though he was muslim (I don't speak to them much anymore). They stopped pushing it eventually.

If they will never see the baby or change a nappy, I'd be tempted to tell them it was done. If they ever do manage a look, you can exclaim "it's grown back!" with a surprised look.

Can you not justsay "This isn't open for discussion" Every time they ask?

@Vanessashanessajenkins2

I was born into a muslim family. I married my british husband who reverted to islam for his own reasons a few years before I met him. He was under some pressure to get it done as an adult but was told by a shaykh that what matters most for him as an adult is cleanliness not actually having the circumcision done. When our son was born, my husband did not want to have it done so we haven't. This has caused a huge upset with my side of the family but I just couldn't bare to put my baby through it. I stuck to my guns. I was already known as the rebellious one for marrying 'out' into a white British family even though he was muslim (I don't speak to them much anymore). They stopped pushing it eventually.

This is the same as us, except I’m the white convert.

Another reason why it would be even more scandalous.

How do you/ did you rationalise your decision not
To from a religious point of view. To me, we know that Ibrahim was circumcised at 80, so I follow that logic but it’s definitely a minority view xx

@Iggi999

If they will never see the baby or change a nappy, I'd be tempted to tell them it was done. If they ever do manage a look, you can exclaim "it's grown back!" with a surprised look.

I love this!

It sounds like your DH is afraid to rock the boat and cut/limit contact.

As I said I would be removing yourself entirely from the situation. If people turn up ignore them, if they call ignore then you've no reason to engage in conversation and who cares if you piss of some elders.

I think saldy unless your DH really puts his foot down then the situation won't be resolved. They will continue to hound him because they think he will give in. I think as a PP said this will only stop if he really cuts contact.

I would do anything in my power to protect my child from being mutilated by another human.
Dress it up how you like, it is barbaric.

@MissingTheMoonlight thanks for your input!

No offence taken at all!

I just politely said I didn't think it was right to modify a perfectly healthy body in the name of religion and that was end of the discussion.

I then got all the after the fact justifications like 'it's cleaner' & 'it looks better' and my favourite, 'it protects against STDs'!

Utter tosh all of them however over time these have been sowed in culture as a non religious justification for the procedure.

If they play that little role in your life then lie. It’s not worth the hassle of arguing about something they will never see.

@Peoniesandpeaches

If they play that little role in your life then lie. It’s not worth the hassle of arguing about something they will never see.

Extended family dont but immediate family do (more dh than mine as they are his parents)

@McPancreas

No offence taken at all!

I just politely said I didn't think it was right to modify a perfectly healthy body in the name of religion and that was end of the discussion.

I then got all the after the fact justifications like 'it's cleaner' & 'it looks better' and my favourite, 'it protects against STDs'!

Utter tosh all of them however over time these have been sowed in culture as a non religious justification for the procedure.

We got similar tosh about my daughters hair, how her hair makes her have colic, and unhappy and now has made her short 🤨 they all come out of the woodwork for this mumbo jumbo.
I know with circumcision it will be the hair scenario x1000

Yes, I’m Jewish and no we actively chose not to circumcise any sons from before we got married. It was actually something that was raised in our pre marital counselling and something we made a really conscious choice about.

Despite the Pearl clutching eyebrows raised on mumsnet there is actually a very vocal community of Jews who are anti-circumcision and all sorts of new communal rituals around baby naming. Judaism is quite progressive and there are lots of ways of doing things that don’t involve causing pain to your children.

Why mutilate your child? It’s barbaric and I don’t care that some bloke mentions it an old book - still barbaric.

@Ritasueandbobtoo9

Why mutilate your child? It’s barbaric and I don’t care that some bloke mentions it an old book - still barbaric.

Helpful, thanks

@mindutopia

Yes, I’m Jewish and no we actively chose not to circumcise any sons from before we got married. It was actually something that was raised in our pre marital counselling and something we made a really conscious choice about.

Despite the Pearl clutching eyebrows raised on mumsnet there is actually a very vocal community of Jews who are anti-circumcision and all sorts of new communal rituals around baby naming. Judaism is quite progressive and there are lots of ways of doing things that don’t involve causing pain to your children.

I do think (perhaps wrongly, happy to be corrected) Jews/ liberal Judaism is more progressive in this aspect.

[quote Sleeplessem]@GreenCrayon, I say this with respect but it does carry much more significance in the Muslim and Jewish community than you might anticipate if you aren’t part of the community. Sorry that sounds exclusionary.

In terms of actions, yeah they can’t do anything I’m just looking for hints from folks who’ve had this same issue on shutting down the convo, ideally any scholars who agree would be fab (although unlikely I think). DD is 2 and I still get crap about now shaving her head for instance[/quote]
I’m only part Jewish, and not the “right” part so not officially Jewish, but I do have some idea what you mean, and the pressure, and I’m glad you’re having the conversation, or at least trying to.

Even my son has had some fierce debates with his Jewish GF about this. So the next generation aren’t in agreement, either. This needs discussion.

very vocal community of Jews who are anti-circumcision and all sorts of new communal rituals around baby naming.

Reading about some of those really cheered me. NYC seems to be particularly leading the way.

[quote Sleeplessem]@SimonJT DH mentioned post sports. As a girl I never showered naked so didn’t think that it would be a thing. But he said after football they would, not sure if this would happen now, we’re talking 25+ years ago now[/quote]
Will he just associate with Muslims? If he’s playing sport with people of other races and religions then he won’t be the only one that didn’t have his genitals mutilated. Have you heard of female genital mutilation (FGM)? People who agree with FGM call it “cutting” and it “cleanses” the girl. Circumcision is male genital mutilation.

Will he just associate with Muslims? If he’s playing sport with people of other races and religions then he won’t be the only one that didn’t have his genitals mutilated. Have you heard of female genital mutilation (FGM)? People who agree with FGM call it “cutting” and it “cleanses” the girl. Circumcision is male genital mutilation.

Way to go in with a sledgehammer. Can you not discern from what OP has said that she in anti-circumcision?

@RickiTarr

Will he just associate with Muslims? If he’s playing sport with people of other races and religions then he won’t be the only one that didn’t have his genitals mutilated. Have you heard of female genital mutilation (FGM)? People who agree with FGM call it “cutting” and it “cleanses” the girl. Circumcision is male genital mutilation.

Way to go in with a sledgehammer. Can you not discern from what OP has said that she in anti-circumcision?

She could say this to her DH and family if they won’t accept her view.