Any Muslim/ Jewish mamas against circumcision?

[Sleeplessem]

I’m expecting a boy, about 18 weeks so still a while to go yet but I know circumcision is a norm (at least on DH side of the family). It is typically done in the first few weeks of life.

For quite a few reasons, including anatomical ones (I went to a presentation on genital cutting and learned that until 18 months or so the foreskin is fused to the tip of the penis) I’m not for infantile circumcision. Luckily DH is of the same view, although he would still want it done In basically primary school age as he’s worried a) son would get bullied by other Muslim kids (I’ve heard of this tbf so it’s not entirely ridiculous, b) we’d be failing to do a religious requirement and c) that it might not get done. Me I’m more about consent, if DS asked about it at 12, id explain the procedure, why it’s considered a good thing in our faith and if he wanted to go ahead it’s his choice, same for if he said later.

I know religiously there is a difference of opinion,
I’m of the school of thought that it’s sunnah rather than wajib or fardh.

DHs family will be enraged by my stance. It won’t sway me either way, but I’m thinking of ways now to just diffuse the conversation or shut it down. I can lose my rag a bit about stuff like this. Any mamas who have similar opinions been through this? What did you say? How did you make the stfu? Lol xx

It already has moved underground. Shouting about it has stopped it being mainstream in the Uk. If we all shut up, the government allows it and then the abuse just happens out in the open and easier to access. The truth is it doesn't matter, those who want to do it will do it regardless. Making it difficult in the uk will have surely saved some children having to go through it

@NakedNugget

It already has moved underground. Shouting about it has stopped it being mainstream in the Uk. If we all shut up, the government allows it and then the abuse just happens out in the open and easier to access. The truth is it doesn't matter, those who want to do it will do it regardless. Making it difficult in the uk will have surely saved some children having to go through it

But in this circumstance where a clearly like minded person approached similarly like minded people asking for tips on how to broach this difficult subject how has it helped? As the OP, let me tell you it hasn’t. My mind was already made up that it’s wrong. What was the point here of shouting how barbaric it is when everyone who has posted is in agreement?

Maybe some other ladies who are on the fence read this post and it just turns them the other way

If someone is on the fence and bears multiple times it's a barbaric child abuse practice then what's your logic there?

Anyone on the fence is more likely to move towards the most popular opinion

I'm with @1940s I don't think anyone is going to come to this thread uhmming and erring whether to mutilate their child's genitals and decide that they'll do it because NakedNugget was against it.

@1940s

If someone is on the fence and bears multiple times it's a barbaric child abuse practice then what's your logic there?

Anyone on the fence is more likely to move towards the most popular opinion

Again this is where being non Muslim makes it seem more black and white. Perhaps some facts disputing the claims of benefit that religious leaders often cite (cleanliness etc) or maybe some information about the anatomy of an infant boy (ie foreskin fused to the tip of penis, no retractable so skin must be ripped away thus opening the door for real damage).

I’m really moderate and progressive so not a lot bothers me but it does comes across as Muslim bashing

@NakedNugget

I'm with *@1940s* I don't think anyone is going to come to this thread uhmming and erring whether to mutilate their child's genitals and decide that they'll do it because NakedNugget was against it.

Sorry this is tedious now. I get your opinion, we all share it.

But none of this is helpful to my situation nor others mums and dads in a similar one

Removing the foreskin from a baby for no benefit other than for reasons of faith is in my opinion child abuse. You are clutching to call that Muslim bashing. Very embarrassing to claim that

A circumcised penis is a desensitized one, it makes men have to thrust harder into a tighter space to get desired effects. Then causes greater friction on a woman's vagina, causing pain or discomfort. The foreskin is designed to create a barrier to protect the woman's vagina while it's being thrust inside, while giving the man desired pleasure as it slides open and closed. Circumcision is barbaric unless it has to be done for medical reasons. It causes great distress for a man's sex life and affects their partners. It's akin to removing one of the most important senses for a human. Would you damage your baby's sense of taste, smell and touch if it was written in the Koran and deny your child the pleasure of living a satisfying life with all their senses intact?

@1940s

Removing the foreskin from a baby for no benefit other than for reasons of faith is in my opinion child abuse. You are clutching to call that Muslim bashing. Very embarrassing to claim that

No it’s stating this ‘tradition’ is just barbaric without providing some very basic justifications can be read that way. The fact of the matter is, Even though is messed up and morally wrong, some people hold it very dear and just saying how it’s barbaric will just be read as an assault on their belief (Muslim, jew or otherwise). Of course question it but bring nuance not just noise.

Honestly your comments have been so unhelpful, no one is saying on this thread it’s a great idea

@Emmylouisa

A circumcised penis is a desensitized one, it makes men have to thrust harder into a tighter space to get desired effects. Then causes greater friction on a woman's vagina, causing pain or discomfort. The foreskin is designed to create a barrier to protect the woman's vagina while it's being thrust inside, while giving the man desired pleasure as it slides open and closed. Circumcision is barbaric unless it has to be done for medical reasons. It causes great distress for a man's sex life and affects their partners. It's akin to removing one of the most important senses for a human. Would you damage your baby's sense of taste, smell and touch if it was written in the Koran and deny your child the pleasure of living a satisfying life with all their senses intact?

No one here is debating whether to have it done. Please read my post, the purpose is how to shut down the outrage my decision to not have it done will cause

Hi OP, I’m muslim. And I say there is room
For difference of opinion.

I know many Muslims from the older generation for circumstancized just before puberty. So if science tells u thr foreskin is fused and ur convinced it’s healthier for u to leave it for later then leave it for later. Religion doesn’t restrict u.

He won’t get bullied I don’t think boys know about these things until later.

I’m a practicing Muslim and I circumsized my boy at 3 months. But if me and DH were convinced leaving it for later was better then I wouldn’t have felt religiously compelled to do it early. There isn’t anything religiosity to dictate that.

I don't need to provide justifications. It's obvious why it's wrong. Just because it's a tradition doesn't mean I need to be sensitive about it. There are so so many barbaric traditions that I don't need to tiptoe around

@Sleeplessem you asked for the nuance and the reasons why and @Emmylouisa has just delivered it to you and then you tell her to read the thread?! Are you reading your own thread?

[quote NakedNugget]**@Sleeplessem* you asked for the nuance and the reasons why and @Emmylouisa* has just delivered it to you and then you tell her to read the thread?! Are you reading your own thread? [/quote]
Wonderfully patronising, cheers.

I just wanted to make it clear that I’m not debating get it done as it seems to be lost on some people

My husband is a non practicing, non believing Jewish man.
I’m atheist and was raised in an atheist household.

My MIL expected our son to be circumcised and only mentioned it one or twice during my pregnancy. She has openly and forcefully stated for years her false beliefs about how healthy it is for both men and women if men are circumcised.

I expected hell. I expected endless comments and I feared forced retraction or damage in her care.

Since he was born and left intact she has never ever made any reference to it. You may be surprised to find that they don’t actually mention it. I think in her case she probably feels too intensely angry and offended about it to even go there 👍

@DeepThinkingGirl

Hi OP, I’m muslim. And I say there is room For difference of opinion.

I know many Muslims from the older generation for circumstancized just before puberty. So if science tells u thr foreskin is fused and ur convinced it’s healthier for u to leave it for later then leave it for later. Religion doesn’t restrict u.

He won’t get bullied I don’t think boys know about these things until later.

I’m a practicing Muslim and I circumsized my boy at 3 months. But if me and DH were convinced leaving it for later was better then I wouldn’t have felt religiously compelled to do it early. There isn’t anything religiosity to dictate that.

I know there are two preferred times to get it done, on the 7th day and then any time before puberty. The expectation would seem to be on the 7th day, however I’m not even comfortable putting my son through it before puberty. I’d want the choice to theirs and this is where the controversy seems to lie.

But thank you for your perspective!

@TwinMum35

My husband is a non practicing, non believing Jewish man. I’m atheist and was raised in an atheist household.

My MIL expected our son to be circumcised and only mentioned it one or twice during my pregnancy. She has openly and forcefully stated for years her false beliefs about how healthy it is for both men and women if men are circumcised.

I expected hell. I expected endless comments and I feared forced retraction or damage in her care.

Since he was born and left intact she has never ever made any reference to it. You may be surprised to find that they don’t actually mention it. I think in her case she probably feels too intensely angry and offended about it to even go there 👍

I bloody well hope so! Haha, would make life a lot easier xx

@MissingTheMoonlight

I would do anything in my power to protect my child from being mutilated by another human. Dress it up how you like, it is barbaric.

This. Absolutely this. I respect peoples religions, but I cannot, and will not try and understand why on earth anybody would put their new baby through a procedure, which would cause an extreme amount of literal torture.

I could never.

Stand strong in your decision. This is your baby and yours to protect. I haven't read the whole thread but keep it out of discussion, you're doing the right thing by not going ahead with it. Definitely stand strong. If it's not medically necessary and the child hasn't given consent. It's barbaric and pure abuse.

Sleeplessem

From what I understand the timing is not prescriptive it’s just a “recommendation”/sunnah.

If you feel strongly against it then I think it’s ok to leave it for your son to decide when he is ready.

No one has ever asked me if my son was circumsized or not. Aside from direct grandparents I don’t think the community would be at all curious

OP, I'm sorry if I offended you in anyway. You did comment in your original post that although you and your DH are against infantile circumsion, your DH would still want it done to your son when he is at primary school age as he’s worried (amongst other things) that your son would get bullied by other Muslim kids. I think its more important to understand that bullying happens in all walks of life, it's less likely that he'll be bullied about having a foreskin. Raising a confident resilient child should be your aim, giving him tools to help him deflect bullying and the like.

OP People go no contact on Mumsnet over bad BBQs. Everyone tries to pretendMN is all liberal and tolerant but they can't possibly fathom that differentcultures do things differently. And that people may not want to end their relationships with beloved family members over somethingthat can be dealt with in an adult way. Have you looked at any of the anti-circumcisiongroups by Muslims to see if you can get better answers? It perfectly apparent to anyone who can read and use an internet forum that you are anti-circumcisionso I can only assume some of these posters are trolling/racist.

I'm not Muslim or Jewish but it is culturally normal when I am from for boys to be circumcisedand I had a lot of conversations. People were coming mostly from the viewpoint of it being dirty which I just explained was horse shit. Calmly every time.

www.facebook.com/muslimsagainstcirc/

Also, we came up against the bullying argument ourselves, and where we lived my son would have been in the minority. Unless you are planning on sending your son to a religious school he is more likely to be the odd one out as a circumcised child.

My dad actually said he was bullied for not being circumcised in school. And when I asked him why he didn't immediately get his foreskin ripped off at 18 he didn't have an answer. Far easier for people to make decisions about other people's penises!

@DeepThinkingGirl

Sleeplessem

From what I understand the timing is not prescriptive it’s just a “recommendation”/sunnah.

If you feel strongly against it then I think it’s ok to leave it for your son to decide when he is ready.

No one has ever asked me if my son was circumsized or not. Aside from direct grandparents I don’t think the community would be at all curious

So I’ve looked into it and only the Hanafi madhab considers it sunnah, the other 3 consider it fardh or wajib.

We got a lot of flack about not shaving my daughters head, even though all the evidence I could find (islam qa for one) states it’s a sunnah only for boys. DH had a dream of angry phone calls, MIL had angry visitors as did we. So I’m using that as my sort of barometer for this.

*stream not dream

@Emmylouisa

OP, I'm sorry if I offended you in anyway. You did comment in your original post that although you and your DH are against infantile circumsion, your DH would still want it done to your son when he is at primary school age as he’s worried (amongst other things) that your son would get bullied by other Muslim kids. I think its more important to understand that bullying happens in all walks of life, it's less likely that he'll be bullied about having a foreskin. Raising a confident resilient child should be your aim, giving him tools to help him deflect bullying and the like.

No you didn’t offend me sweetpea, I just wanted it to be clear we weren’t going to do it without consent, I was getting hammered by 2 other posters who could t quite grasp that.

But I completely agree re bullying, unfortunately children are picked on for all sorts of reasons and it’s impossible to pre empt all of them xx